Leading Through the Great Detachment

Perry Holley:
Foreign to the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast, where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others, and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. I am Perry Holley, a Maxwell Leadership facilitator and coach.

Chris Goede:
And I’m Chris Goede, executive vice president with Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining. Well, we’ve all heard about these catchy phrases, right? And they just keep going.

Perry Holley:
It doesn’t.

Chris Goede:
They just keep going. Well, we got another one for you guys today, and so we’re super excited that you’re joining us and going to dive in, because this is going to help you whether you are an individual contributor or a leader in the business community. We’ve heard about the great resignation. Perry tried to do that twice on me, and I kept going back to find him. Then he went through a quiet quitting phase. I had to wake him up from that.

Perry Holley:
I’m back.

Chris Goede:
And then now he has this conscious unbossing. He went through where I don’t want to unboss. I’m not going to boss anybody. I’m out. I’m not doing anything. Gody. And then we have one more that we’re going to share with you as soon as we dive in. But just as a reminder, go to maxwellleadership.com/podcast.

Chris Goede:
There you can click on this podcast, fill out a form if you got a question, you got a comment. If you’re interested in bringing some training to your organization to help the culture, we do that with the five levels of leadership. It is our foundational course. It helps develop a common language of leadership in organizations. Not only do we train to it, but we coach to it. Perry’s been a big part of that for many years. So you can go there, fill out a form, ask for that information, and our team will get back to you. Well, as we get started, here’s the topic, and this is what we’re talking about today.

Chris Goede:
Outside of these catchy phrases leading through the great Detachment.

Perry Holley:
The great detachment Detachment.

Chris Goede:
This just. I feel like every six months we’re going to get a new phrase. But this actually comes from an article that you saw. I saw one of our other coaches saw and sent it to us. Guys, you got to read this. Yeah. Michael, thank you so much for that, which I think you’re going to feel Michael’s bent in some of this. We’ve got some data for him.

Chris Goede:
He always likes to talk about some data. But the Great detachment, why employees feel Stuck. And this article was written through Gallup by Dr. Ben Widgert and Dr. Corey Tattle. And so we’re going to dive into that topic today and talk a little bit about it.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, I thought it was interesting and like you said, I’m about done with the catchphrases, but coming from Gallup and being so data backed, I think this would. Is worth talking about a little bit. But it says that the authors talk about employees as a whole, feeling a lot. A greater sense of detachment from their jobs. There’s many more people looking for jobs right now than they said. Like from 2015, the rate’s really gone up. Overall satisfaction with the employer has gone down and that they’re frustrated, struggling to find new jobs based on what kind of market you’re in because of the economy and inflation and those types of things. There’s some challenges there.

Perry Holley:
What caught my attention, he said turnover numbers are down, which we all look at that. What is turnover? Oh, we’re down year to year, but employee productivity has gone down and jumped off the page. Yeah, I thought so too, man. Wow. When they feel detached from their work, you think about the organizational change initiative that just keep coming, that there’s, there’s more change, that they’re frustrated and we’re being met with like, indifference or resistance. You’re trying to do too much. I’m detached from what you, what you’re feeling. I wish I could find another job, but I, But I can’t.

Perry Holley:
And so I’m just gonna be here and do the. Do less. Yes.

Chris Goede:
But when I saw that turnover numbers may have slowed, we would celebrate that initially, right? We’d be like, yes, this is because we watch that number. Then we’re like, oh, wait a minute. No, no, no. It’s just because productivity is down as well. And they’re just sitting there, Right? They’re detached. And with the way that the, the world is out in the job market, they. They’re just kind of hanging out. And so the authors then go and talk a little bit about, okay, so what’s causing this? The detachment and the disengagement.

Chris Goede:
Well, we all know that over the last three plus years or so, a lot of organizations have gone through massive and rapid organizational change. Right. Think about even just the way we do things here at Maxwell leadership and how that’s how we deliver content. All that is happening completely different. And so that is causing some of this disengagement or detachment with our employees. So 73%, here’s a couple statistics for you. 73% say that their organization has experienced some type of Disruptive change in whatever they’re doing, some more than others. But 73% say they have in the past year alone.

Chris Goede:
So the more disruption that employee experience, the more likely they’re to feel burned out. I mean, it only takes so many, hey, let’s try to do this differently before you go, okay? I’m just. I’m tired. I’m burned out. Also, though, 55% of managers are reporting disruption from the restructuring of their teams, and 69 of them say employees have additional job responsibilities now because of the restructuring. Oh, yeah, I think this is Maxwell leadership survey, by the way. And then this last statement is where it says, oh, and all of this is happening While nearly half, 46% of those organizations are reporting budget cuts. Just reading all of that makes me just want to put my head down and be disengaged.

Chris Goede:
And that’s the proof in the pudding behind why people are feeling that way.

Perry Holley:
Well, another thing the authors bring out, and this one really makes a lot of sense as well, is that this whole hybrid and remote work has caused some real growing pains around how do we handle that? And is saying that hybrid work, where switching between working here and there, some in the office, some out, versus those who are totally 100% remote, has all kinds of communication challenges for the leader. It’s easy to feel detached in a way, connected. You know, I. Even just the way we travel, we’re, you know, gone week in and week out. I’m not here in the office with you guys. I’m. I’m with clients and out in the field, I don’t know what’s going on. And, you know, I don’t like coming to team meetings, so.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, well, I was going to call you out, but since you admitted it, I won’t call you.

Perry Holley:
I want to get there before you do. But the Gallup research really was heavy on the fact that remote workers, especially fully remote workers, are consistently less connected. That detachment really happens, especially with the organization’s mission and purpose and anything else going on with their counterparts in the office.

Chris Goede:
I totally agree with that. And I experienced that not only personally, but also with some of my team. There’s also been to add to this a change in expectations when it comes to the customers and the. Then the expectation of our, of our employees, like, of the team members. And I think everybody that’s listening that has team members are probably shaking their head saying, no, no, no, that’s absolutely true. New customer expectations say that 71% of them or the employees are saying about customers that they are more demanding and have higher expectations than before the pandemic. I was challenged by this statistic because I feel like at least here in the US I feel like the customer service has gone down. And so I was challenged by this to say, is it that I’m expecting more or has it really gone down? So you’re making me reflect even on my personal experiences outside of what I do every day and the engagement of buying products, buying food or whatever.

Chris Goede:
Initially, I still say I think customer service has slipped a little bit, but this made me rethink that. And then your team members or new employee expectations, the pandemic has really caused them to reevaluate what they want for their career. And we see this all the time or even what they want in and from an employer. And a lot of the employers that we work with, we see them rolling out different things for them in order to, to be able to meet what their new expectations are. And so it’s just a weird dynamic that’s going on right now. And work life balance and better compensation packages are becoming more important to employees along with, not in, you know, or in lieu of, along with expectations to be flexibility, working and remotely. Like it’s just this weird. You and I were having a conversation just a minute ago about the scene in college football right now.

Chris Goede:
This feels a lot like what we just talked about of where it’s just.

Perry Holley:
Like what is going on dynamic has changed. Yeah, everything’s well. Gallup reports that the great detachment really coincides with someone I’m getting aware. What do we do about it?

Chris Goede:
Yeah, we’re telling you all this. We have a little bit of a.

Perry Holley:
Solution in the podcast now. I’d have to lay my head down like you said.

Chris Goede:
That’s right.

Perry Holley:
But it coincides with really two issues that they noticed from the engagement research they do. And one was a lack of clarity of expectations at work and a lack of feeling connected to the purpose of the organization. And less than half this blew me away. Less than half of the people surveyed said that they knew what was expected of them at work. You don’t know what’s expected of you at work. And the research showed that the clarity of expectation is even worse for the youngest employees, new employees and hybrid workers. I’m thinking when we do all this talk, we’re talking about Gen Z and the, you know, the 20 somethings in your workforce and everybody says, well, they feel like they’re not motivated. I’m getting all these calls, people telling me that how do you motivate the well they’re not, they don’t know the expectation, they’re not connected to your purpose are two big areas I think we should look at.

Perry Holley:
But then I started thinking about, you know, what we teach and what we do. This is really in our sweet spot of this five levels of influence and how do you lead and what is your nature as a leader and can you build? What do you think? Can we connect this to the five levels?

Chris Goede:
I absolutely think you can. I obviously am biased with that lens and everything life. But when you look at this, you go, and you just said how do I lead? Right? Like what’s going on? How do I lead differently in order for this not to happen? So now that we set the stage for you on this just recent relevant article, now we’ll talk about, well, okay, so what does that look like and how, how then would you approach that? And for us with the five levels of leadership, we talk often that at level two, it’s about the ability to connect with people, to be able to relate to people so that they want to be a part of your team, they want to follow you. Level three would be, hey, what are we doing to produce together, not only individually but in and through the team so that people are beginning to produce for the organization. So when you look at this initially and we’re going to dive into some of the things you just talked about, you look at level two where we talk about building connection and relationships. This is not just building a friendship. When you go about doing this the right way, when you lead through that, you’re going to foster trust with the individuals. It’s going to encourage two way communication, open communication.

Chris Goede:
They’re going to feel safe to be able to do that. I think also then you learn from a emotional intelligence standpoint right here where how do I go about demonstrating empathy for this individual like or this team member or whatever they might. When you think about those three things, I think that drives the level two, which will help, I think bring them out of that disengagement level. If you look at level three that we were just talking about, man, there’s got to be a place where we’re reconnecting the team members with what the purpose of the organization is. Every single team member should somehow or another know how they’re tied to the greater. That’s right, vision. And if they can stay focused on that, not just in their little cubicle in their corner, that’s going to drive engagement. The other one I wrote down was you talked about this and we’re going to Dig into it, set clear expectations, celebrate the wins.

Chris Goede:
And then the last one I put is when you’re thinking about this and you’re thinking that there’s going to be disengagement going on, how are you creating opportunities for collaboration? Because you’re not, all of your team is going to be disengaged. So the ones that aren’t, they’re contagious. Now it’s the ones that, you know, the ones that are disengaged are contagious as well. But you got to have that collaboration in order to kind of lift the level of the team. So, I mean, we’re going to dive into all this, but this aligns directly with the five levels of leadership. And as a leader, and if you feel this, you should really dial in on some of the things we’re going to talk about that go right into level two and level three of the five levels.

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Perry Holley:
We often talk about in the five levels that some of us, well, you and I, we’re pretty open about the fact that we are level two specialists. We are, we’re, we’re Navy SEALs at level two.

Chris Goede:
Yes, I agree.

Perry Holley:
We have to work at level three. Some of you out there are really, you’re. You’re specialist at level three. You know how to drive the business. You know how to produce results. You’re not so clear on the relationship piece. And this is a danger zone for both of us. Those of us that are level two specialists and level three specialists that we have to balance.

Perry Holley:
This is. I have to connect with you before. Well, John called the law of connection from the 21 laws says touch a heart before you ask for a hand. Level two, I’m touching your heart. But level three, I’m asking for the hand. But I said level two, we just touched the heart. Touch the Heart. Touch the heart.

Perry Holley:
And you were out of business. Yeah. And then we fired because we didn’t produce results.

Chris Goede:
That’s right.

Perry Holley:
And then you’re level three. You’re, you know, ask for the hand. Ask for the hand. Ask for the hand. You didn’t touch the heart. And you’re. You’re in danger because I did. I detach.

Perry Holley:
I’m not. I’m not engaged with you because I don’t like being pushed. I don’t. If you don’t care for me. So level two is critical to level three. But level three is where you drive the results, is where you set a goal. And what’s our purpose as a team? And we set expectations. It would hurt me to no end to know that my team came to you behind my back.

Perry Holley:
Go. I have no idea what Perry expects of us. I don’t know what we’re trying to do here. What is our purpose? I mean, this is basic stuff, but it needs to be communicated. And especially we’re talking about the youngers and the hybrid or remote workers. Communication becomes critical to letting people know daily, weekly, monthly. What are we trying to accomplish? What are our objectives? What is our purpose? Why are you. You just made a beautiful point.

Perry Holley:
Why are they relevant to the purpose? Why does what you do matter to the purpose? And I expect you to do this and this. And this could be metrics, could be accomplishments, could be, you know, goals, whatever it is you want to call it, make sure that everybody is on a regular communication with you to understand this is what we do. This is how I contribute to what we do. This is what’s expected to me. This is why I matter. Now. Let’s. Let’s reattach.

Perry Holley:
Let’s don’t detach. Let’s re. Engage. Because I. I get pretty pumped up about that. It’s all about driving that. Motivation, insight, someone.

Chris Goede:
That’s right.

Perry Holley:
To do that.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. And you mentioned. You said basic just a minute ago. This is basic stuff. But I think what ends up happening is that the longer that we have been a part of a team, the longer we’ve allowed disengagement to happen. And maybe even you look at yourself and you say, I may even be disengaged. That the things that can help get you out of that are basic, but we. We tend to forget about it.

Chris Goede:
And we always say this at the five levels of leadership to where we say, hey, just because you increase your levels doesn’t mean you leave the ones behind.

Perry Holley:
Right?

Chris Goede:
Right. And so you can’t just go from.

Perry Holley:
Don’T you hear, you hear someone going, whoops, so glad that relationship building is over so we can get down and some work around here?

Chris Goede:
No, instead you got your team that comes to you. And this happened to me. And this is a personal example. Hey, Gody, when are we going to do some level two time? I mean, you haven’t, you know, been connected with us or whatever in a long time. And so you’ve got. It’s a. It’s a fluid thing. Now you talked about this motivation, I love it in the heart, right.

Chris Goede:
Is that when you tie these individuals, no matter what their role is, to the bigger part of the organization, it is going to motivate them internally and especially the younger generations. They want to make a difference in the world and they want to know how that ties to. And you may say, well, my organization doesn’t make a difference in the world. It does. You just got to figure out what that common thread is. What is that that your organization is doing that’s making an impact, that you got to do that you got to tie it together. Now the other thing is we have this saying that we talk about here at Maxwell Leadership. We go, man, we love what we get to do.

Chris Goede:
And when we say it and we’re together, then what ends up happening is that it becomes this tribe, this community. And it’s not just a job. It’s that our team, our corporate solutions team, when we get together on Mondays, you never show up. But for those team meetings we talk about, the fact is you can work.

Perry Holley:
That into every conversation.

Chris Goede:
We say, hey, not only do we love what we get to do, I always add on love even more who we get to do it with. When you’re doing that, what you’re doing is you’re collectively that community. You’re engaging them together into the bigger purpose of that. Again, these are basic things, but we forget to do them because we just. It just becomes something to where we not complacent. But, you know, we’re talking about numbers and metrics and you know, hey, Perry, something about the client engagement last week. And sometimes I think this engagement is going to happen. Lots of change and all that kind of good stuff.

Chris Goede:
But if we just slow down and come back to the basics and you said the word to kind of just trigger me going, yeah, that’s it. To where I think we can help make that change.

Perry Holley:
Well, a lot of leaders that I talk with and we talk about this, do the people on your team know why they matter? What are they connected to your purpose? Do they Know their expectation? Oh, yeah, they all got it. I said, well, you know, I was talking to some people especially. I just had one recently. They specialize in servicing automobiles. And one of the. I said, what’s your purpose here? To a younger? And they said, all. All. I just service cars.

Perry Holley:
Now. It’s a pet peeve of mine. If anybody uses the word, just totally agree with you. I just do. If I like me saying I just teach classes. No, what is it you really do? So I did an exercise with this group, and I put this on the video we just provided for them. I want you to do an exercise with your team that says, what do you really do? And if anybody says, I just sell cars, I just service cars. I just, you know.

Perry Holley:
No, no, I want you to. I want you to be a little corny, but I want you to go ahead and just tell me, what do you do that makes the world better place? So with the. With the young kids, they’re working on the cars, I said, what do you really do? Well, I serve as. No, what do you really do? I fix problems. Now, what do you really do? And so I kept pushing. So I want to be really corny, but I said, I provide safe, reliable transportation for the families in our community to get their children to and from school every day. And we were playing. We were being a little funny, but I said, not really.

Perry Holley:
I really want to know what is. And can I make that part of your purpose? Could you come in here? Do you see that differently than I just service cars? No, you don’t. You’re providing an amazing service for families in your community based around automotive needs.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. Is that not. No. I love it. Right? Getting into these. Like, I’m going through my head as you’re talking about that. You could do that with any position in organization. I was thinking about customer service at any organization.

Chris Goede:
Well, I’m just solving problems. No, no, no. What you’re doing is you’re caring for a concern or a problem that someone has that you’re going to solve in the moment that they will then trust your organization to come back to again for another opportunity to do something. There’s a story there that we’ve got to do a better job of telling about what you.

Perry Holley:
You mark and how you communicate from the top. What do we do? We don’t just teach leadership. We add value to the lives of leaders who multiply to others. You think, yes, it’s a big purpose. It’s really bigger than me, and I’m a small part of that. That’s what you want. People on your team is saying, I can attach engage to something that is bigger than me and I’m a part of. And I know what you expect of me.

Chris Goede:
I totally agree. The other thing is just want to make sure. Don’t assume that your people know their value to the team, especially the ones that are, you know, the loyalists that just get up, they show up every day. They. They continue to do what they’re doing and they’re part of the production. Don’t make an assumption that they know that. Even if you’ve told them 15, 20 times, make sure that they hear it from you. They.

Chris Goede:
What’s the. The old phrase of the best sound you can hear is your voice, right? Hey, Perry, whatever it is like, when they hear that, especially from their leader, they’re going to feel needed, they’re going to feel valued. And I think the other thing too that I want to add here is make sure you’re asking your employees to share stories about what makes them proud of the work that they do. It could be the work that the organization does, but I would challenge you to go even a little bit deeper and say, what about the work you do? Like what makes you proud about what you’re doing? And listen to that. And then take notes, by the way, because watch for those examples and then you can verbally communicate that to them again. Just another little basic tip, but it’s all part of how do we get them? And you’ve used this illustration for those that haven’t been listening a long time. Perry’s helped us developed over 350 episodes. So go find a couple of them.

Chris Goede:
That where we talk about the rowboat and you’re trying to get those people that are in the middle that are.

Perry Holley:
Just along watching the scenery go by.

Chris Goede:
And we want them get them up and be engaged. And this is one of the ways to do that.

Perry Holley:
Well, I think the great detachment really indicates to me that our teams are struggling. Employees could be struggling, especially the younger ones, the remote ones or the hybrid ones. And they’re trying to navigate. Navigate these new priorities and this ever changing dynamic that’s going on in the workplace. They’re questioning the meaning and purpose of their work and what their part is in that. And I think that that’s a leadership issue.

Chris Goede:
I have been waiting for you to say that statement the entire session and I’ve been biting my tongue because 100% leadership sets the tone and it is contagious and it is a leadership issue. You’re going to have all kinds of other factors going on and flying around and. But man, it is a leadership issue and we can address this. We as leaders, remember, leadership is influence. So we influence a lot of people. You don’t have to have a title. And so we can address this in how we lead. We can reframe the opportunity.

Chris Goede:
We can re engage them. We can build trust, we can foster relationships. We can create culture. And so I wrote this statement down. The root of the problem does lie in leadership. However, so does the solution.

Perry Holley:
I agree.

Chris Goede:
And it’s basic. Okay, it’s not easy, but it’s basic. And we just got to get to work and doing it. And when we do that, I think we’ll begin to see the engagement level and the productivity go up. Because I’m still floored by that statement that said turnover’s down. We get all excited about that. Oh, wait, wait. So it’s productivity.

Chris Goede:
He’s like, that’s a problem. That’s a problem.

Perry Holley:
Good word. All right, thank you very much for joining us. You can, as a reminder, go to maxwellleadership.com you can get the learner guide for this issue. Learn about our other podcast offerings. You can also leave us a question or a comment there. We love hearing from you. So grateful you’d spend this time with us today. That’s all from the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast.

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