The GWC Test: How to Assess Your Team

Perry Holley:
Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast, where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others, and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. Hi, I’m Perry Holley, a Maxwell Leadership facilitator and coach.

Chris Goede:
And I’m Chris Goede, Executive Vice President with Maxwell Leadership. Thanks for joining us today, and we are super excited to have you back one more time. Thank you. We are in our 400-somewhere episode.

Perry Holley:
419 Thursdays in a row.

Chris Goede:
And what we want to hear from you is Barry does a really good job of talking to our coaches and our facilitators and bringing content that we are working with and that we’re hearing from our clients and people in the field. But we would love to hear from you. And so that means I want you to visit MaxwellLeadership.com/ExecutivePodcast. There you can fill out the form. Give us a thought. Give us a leadership challenge. I

Perry Holley:
have gotten a couple lately. Been good.

Chris Goede:
Nice. Yeah. And let’s unpack them for you in the session and let’s help you. Well, today’s topic is the GWC test, how to assess your team. Some of you hear that and quickly you know what that means. We’re going to talk about that in just a minute. But there’s no doubt that I think every leader at times I know I’ve been here before, you probably have as well, where you try to avoid, do I really need to sit down and figure out, do I have the right team? Are they in the right seat? Are they the right people? Is there alignment there? And so obviously this was made very popular by Jim Collins in Good to Great when we talk about having the right people in the right seat. But many leaders really struggle with how to determine whether we do have the right people.

Chris Goede:
and if they’re in the right seat. And those are 2 totally different things. Yes, they are. That’s what we’re going to talk about today.

Perry Holley:
Yeah. So this came up on a coaching conversation. The gentleman I was coaching, he said, biggest problem is I don’t think I have the right person in the role. And I said, what are you doing about it and how are you addressing that? He goes, I just can’t bring myself to have the conversation because they’re such a good person. And I thought, well, you’re not the first person to struggle with this, but it’s It’s not about the person, it’s about the fit of the person in the role. And there’s lots of ways we can go, but I thought we would just look through a couple of these, a couple of questions really to say, how do I determine, do I have the right person in the right role? And what do I do about that? And it kind of brings up the first question I have for you, which we hear that the right person, but how do you determine, how do you measure that?

Chris Goede:
Yeah, I think each organization has a a DNA about what it takes to succeed in their culture. And so remember, what we’re doing here is really kind of separating these 2, because a lot of us go, when you hear, do I have the right person? We’re like, okay, what’s their competence? What’s their skillset? Are they a good person? Are they a friend of ours?

Perry Holley:
Chemistry.

Chris Goede:
Chemistry.

Perry Holley:
With the owner.

Chris Goede:
With the team, all that kind of good stuff. And really what it’s about is what are the core values Of the organization. And from what you can learn throughout the process, whether it’s beforehand or while they’re on the team, is really evaluating, do they live that out? Is there alignment and agreement to some extent with those values? Not necessarily the skillset that they have. And so you’re looking at that and it’s hard for, especially when people will go, hey, I know this guy Perry. Man, you should interview them for that role and there’s a connection there. And sometimes what we’ll do as leaders is we’ll maybe put a little bit of a cloud in between our judgment of do they really have values alignment with that? Why this is so important is that if you’re not clear on that on the front end, it’s going to be a tension point for you and them, but also for them and your team or— them in the organization, and they could be the beginning seed of eroding the culture that you’ve built.

Perry Holley:
Well, that’s the point right there, is that if I have a misalignment with a person and our core values, then it can erode the entire culture. They can undermine a lot of what’s going on. So let me just— is it a recruiting? Is it a hiring? Where do you bring in values into the onboarding? Well, definitely on the onboarding. If I made a decision to bring you in,

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Perry Holley:
But do I even bring values into the recruiting and the hiring process?

Chris Goede:
So it’s interesting because you can, but I think you have to do that at the very, very end because you have to build a little bit of trust between yourself and the other individuals because they can, well, they can say that they value it, or you can take ’em through some activities and you can maybe try to figure out what their values are. But at the end of the day, You got to trust that they’re not just doing that to align with what your organizational values are. So that is the million-dollar question, is how do you do it on the front end?

Perry Holley:
How does Chick-fil-A get a certain kind of young person that I don’t see at some of the other restaurants?

Chris Goede:
In regards to the operators or to the workers?

Perry Holley:
No, the operators. No, the workers.

Chris Goede:
The workers.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, the workers. They recruit or they hire.

Chris Goede:
I don’t know. You need to tell me because that’s your wheelhouse.

Perry Holley:
I just— I think that they have a culture that’s well known. They have a set of core values, and I think that they’ll make sure that, are you going to be a good fit chemistry-wise, character-wise? We can fix your competency problem. We can train for that. But they really go above board trying to hire a certain kind of person that’s going to carry their culture to us, the guest.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, I agree with that. And what’s powerful about that example, and/or if you build a team that’s consistent with that, is that the culture itself will squeeze that individual out right away. They won’t enjoy working there, right? They’re not going to be engaged with what’s going on. It is hard though. It is hard, especially when it’s a new team member. You got an open position and you’re hiring. How do you do everything you can to make sure that it’s the best values fit? We are notorious for being very slow hires.

Perry Holley:
Mm-hmm.

Chris Goede:
And one of the ways that we try to sniff that out is consistency over time through the interviews. One of the ways I would just encourage people, it just came to mind, is that through the interview process, you have to have a couple of the same questions that are tied maybe to culture and the values that are asked by multiple different people. Because then what you want to do is you want to take those answers and then you want to compare ’em across the board.

Perry Holley:
Right.

Chris Goede:
To make sure that there’s consistency, that gives you a little bit of an idea to be able to do that. Let me ask you this question before we move on to the next topic. So let’s say you have a person, you’ve already hired them, and they’re killing it for you. They’re producing like crazy, whatever that is in your KPIs, but they’re not the right person. How do you handle that?

Perry Holley:
Not the right person to find

Chris Goede:
value-wise, right? They’re killing it. They’re the talent.

Perry Holley:
Are they doing something to disrupt the workplace? Yeah.

Chris Goede:
Like they violate the core values. just not in alignment with the core values of the organization. Now, they got in by saying they were, but now they’re in and they’re producing and they’re killing it for you, but it’s become evident they don’t have the same values as the organization.

Perry Holley:
Yeah. If they’re not in alignment with the values, they’re doing things that go against our culture and how we do things, and you do not address it, what you tolerate expands and will grow legs and will metastasize inside the organization. And other people will say, well, if they can do it, I guess I can do it. It will begin to fall apart. I think quickly. So if you don’t address it, what you tolerate is going to—

Chris Goede:
Yeah. And you begin to lose credibility as a leader, right? Because then your team sees this happening. Well, it’s not really your culture. It’s not your culture.

Perry Holley:
Yeah. You’re just faking it.

Chris Goede:
You said something, I think maybe it was last week, you talked about what are the behaviors behind what drives your culture and/or your values? You got to define those first. And maybe that even helps you on the front end because being able to maybe assess certain behaviors, Is a lot easier than assessing, do they have an alignment with our core values? And so it even gets into the weeds of now we’re talking about your values versus the right person. But—

Perry Holley:
Yeah. Then your interview questions can be tailored for that behaviors that you’re in your previous employment. Where did these behaviors show up? That’s exactly right.

Chris Goede:
Okay. So we haven’t told you, if you’re not aware what GWC is, and some of you are listening to this and you’re just nodding along and You know what it is, but you’ve really never applied it. And some of you, you just don’t even know what it is, and that’s okay. So break that down for us as we’re talking about this assessment and assessing our people in the place with GWC.

Perry Holley:
Yeah. So this comes from Gino Wickman, Traction EOS, Entrepreneur Operating System, and I just love it. I use it all the time when people are saying, I’m thinking about promoting someone. I’m thinking about getting my best salesperson who’s going to become a sales manager. And I say, well, let me ask you 3 questions.

Chris Goede:
Don’t do it.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, don’t do it. Well, not always. We get in trouble sometimes by just promoting the best, the top performer, and then they don’t GWC it. So the G is, does the person get it? Do they understand the role? Do they understand what this plays out in the organization? Do they understand? Do they just get it, what you do? I know they like what it looks like to be a manager in the organization. Do they really get it?

Chris Goede:
Really get it.

Perry Holley:
What goes on in this role to do that? The W is, do they want it? Have you even asked them, do they want to? I’ve really started doing this lately. I did it this morning on a coaching call. I made an assumption that this guy would like to be promoted. I said, I’m sorry, I don’t think I’ve ever asked you that. Do you want to be in the next role? Yeah. He goes, I kind of do. I said, okay, good. Make sure, because I was assuming that, but we kind of assumed that wouldn’t everybody want to be us and be in management? And I thought, no, no, they don’t.

Perry Holley:
So do they get it? Do they want it? And then C is, do they have the capacity for it? Now, this could be taken a couple of ways. In my book, I think about, do they have the capacity Mental, physical, energy-wise, can they have the capacity to tolerate what’s going to happen when they get this new role? But also, do they have the capacity in their current life stage? Do they have the capacity to take on— we were just talking about our kids taking on at their young ages. Now they’re taking on high-level, high-pressure jobs that are keeping them away from home more than they would like. And they’re noticing, I’m pretty proud of them both for noticing that it does this.

Chris Goede:
Awareness.

Perry Holley:
Awareness. Do they have the capacity to give what it takes to do this job?

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Perry Holley:
So do these resonate with you when you see it?

Chris Goede:
Yeah. we talk about this a lot, really tied even to the engagement level, because this is so important for you as a leader to help make sure your team is there. Because people who are using their strengths on a daily basis in the roles that you have them in are actually 6 times more likely to be engaged than some of the other ones. And so think about it. We’ve all had opportunities to work in the past where it felt like we were working out of our left hand or working in an organization that didn’t have the right values. I promise you, we were not We were not engaged, right? We were not the ones that were doing that discretionary effort. And so it is absolutely something that’s super important. One of the quickest ways that I think about it, because Perry and I both love sports, is with this GWC is like, I go, hey, do they understand the game? Do they want to play in the game? And can they perform in that game that we’re going to put them

Perry Holley:
in? Not throwing them in over their head.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. And it’s not, I mean, it’s And there’s different people for each one. And so not everybody is that right fit. And that’s part of our job as a leader.

Perry Holley:
So is it enough now? Let’s say we got a couple of tests here. We do have the fit test. Do they fit and align with our values and the role that they’re asked to do? And we have the GWC test. Do they get it, want it, have the capacity for it? Is that enough? Do I have alignment?

Chris Goede:
Is that enough?

Perry Holley:
Tell me what— That’s a loaded question.

Chris Goede:
I know. Leadership. Yeah. So let’s talk about this, right? So You’re thinking about it a little bit differently now. And so here are a couple things to be thinking about. If you have the right person and you have them in the right seat, you have a keeper, right? You have someone that you can invest in that I think you can develop and then get out of the way and let them— we call it their sweet spot. Right,

Perry Holley:
right.

Chris Goede:
You also can have the right person, but they’re just in the wrong seat.

Perry Holley:
I had that happen recently. A guy said, we think we gotta fire this guy. I go, whoa, whoa, wait, wait a minute. Why? Is he not right for the— no, we love him. Everybody loves him. I said, was he a bad hire? They go, no, no, everybody loves him. He’s a real fit. I said, well, maybe he’s in the wrong— is he in the wrong role? And they hung up and went, we’ll call you back.

Perry Holley:
Yeah.

Chris Goede:
Which is great. I love that because the hardest part of all this is the hiring process. And so if you know that you have the right people and they’re just not the right fit, go find the right fit. Yeah.

Perry Holley:
Good character, good chemistry.

Chris Goede:
Inside the organization. But then you have the wrong person. Remember what we were talking about, the difference between the two, but you have them in the right seat and this is where they’re killing it, but the values are off. And this is the hardest. That’s why I asked you the question early on, because this is hard, right? Because we know we have to drive results and you’re like, can I? And you start justifying it. Right. As soon as you have to start justifying it as a leader, you gotta You got to make a change because I guarantee you your team has realized it before you have.

Perry Holley:
Right.

Chris Goede:
And they just haven’t told you. And the longer that you let that go, the less credibility you have as a leader. Then finally, to kind of finish this matrix, you have the wrong person in the wrong seat. What do we do with them, Perry? I’ll let you answer that one.

Perry Holley:
Yeah. This is when you got to have the conversation that this is, boy, this is, you got to make the tough conversation here because they’re not a good chemistry fit, and they’re also not doing the job well. So yeah, I’m going to have to probably find you somewhere else to go.

Chris Goede:
That’s exactly right.

Perry Holley:
To do that.

Chris Goede:
All right, so let’s get practical. Okay? Because we just kind of talked about it from a description philosophical point of view. So how do you actually have this conversation with your team knowing that what we’ve shared and what you’re looking for between the two, how do you have that conversation? Without it turning into you’re going to try to develop them over a couple of months, 6, 12, 14 months to try to fix the right person or the right seat. How do we approach that as leaders?

Perry Holley:
Yeah, we were just working on this with a client. He had a little process. He said, we think we got the right person but wrong seat, but what do we do with that? So it’s really, first of all, if I could say anything I really took from from working up this lesson was make it about the seat, not about the person. Is that I’m not judging a person necessarily. I’m not coming down on them. I think that’s why we avoid the conversation. It seems like it’s going to be a conflict.

Chris Goede:
Like it’s personal.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, it’s personal. And it’s really about the seat and the effectiveness in the seat. And I’m going to tell you, if you have somebody that’s the wrong person, the right person within the wrong seat, they want you to talk to them.

Chris Goede:
They know, right? They’re in this pickle.

Perry Holley:
They feel that way. It’s miserable for them to do that. But I would say, coach to it. Don’t ambush people on it. To come alongside them, have the conversation, talk in these terms, use the term GWC. Figure out, do they really get it? Do they really want it? And do they have the capacity? Can I help them on any of those 3? Because they are the person we want, but they’re not in the right place. So can we find them the right place? But I think the GWC really helped me a lot to think, Even talking that way to them to let them share, I don’t think at this time in my life this is really the right role for me. And they don’t, that seems like weakness to share that out on their own.

Perry Holley:
If I encourage it, it’s not weakness, it’s me wanting to help you. As we talked last week about the Hendrik Maxwell thing about they were looking out for, I want the best for you, not from you.

Chris Goede:
The best from you.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, I thought.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, I think too, as leaders, Like you mentioned, it’s not that you’re rescuing them, but if you’re aware of it, they’re probably aware of it. And I think you can actually have that conversation from a practical standpoint by just asking some really good questions and getting into a dialogue. We talk about the 3 questions that every follower asks, right? Which is, can they help me, your leader? Do I trust them? And do they care for me? And maybe a way practically is to open the conversation and say, I do care for you and I do want to help you. I have some questions. I just don’t feel like— right? And go into that dialogue and do it authentically. Make sure that they don’t feel like you’re trying to ambush them softly to be able to do that.

Perry Holley:
And it probably wasn’t part of what I was thinking when I did this, but one thing I’ve found helpful was I kind of keep a list written of each person and what are their strengths and what are their struggles? What are their natural abilities, their personality and temperament? Are they more analytical and quiet? Are they more outgoing and engaging? I began to look for constantly evaluating, are they in the best place in my organization to— And this is assuming they are the right person. We’ve made a good hire, but are they in the place where they can grow and blossom and really bring their very best because they’re energized about the work that they’re doing. And that’s a gift you give everybody on your team is you put them in a place where they can do the best work.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Perry Holley:
And then their energy goes up and they want to be a part of what you’re doing. Yeah.

Chris Goede:
Well, as we wrap up, here’s one other thought for you. I just did this recently. I think anytime in your organization or your team, as changes happen, Use the opportunity of that change to reevaluate the right person and the right position. Are they in the right seat for what I would say the current state of your team and your organization, but also the future of where you see your business or your team going? Because those are two different things. And so I would say, hey, as you’re thinking about this and you’re reevaluating it, hopefully often, You say to yourself, if this position became available, would I enthusiastically hire that person for that position? And would they be fulfilled doing that? Right? And I think if you can ask yourself that question for the current state of your team and your business, but also the future state, then I absolutely think it’ll give you a different perspective. And I love what you said. It’s not about the person. Now, the right person for the values fit, yes.

Chris Goede:
But remember, the values come first. Does the person fit into that? The right seat is the skillset. Does the person fit into that? And so those are the 2 important pillars that you got to remember. And so that it’s not personal for them. And at the end of the day, we want what’s best for them. And if you do that with the right motive and you do it authentically, they’ll be grateful for it.

Perry Holley:
It’ll be best for everyone to do that. Fantastic, Chris, thank you. As a reminder, if you’d like the learner guide for this episode, you can get that as well as learn about any of our offerings. You can also leave a comment or a question there. We love hearing from you. That’s at MaxwellLeadership.com/ExecutivePodcast. We love hearing from you. So grateful you spend this time with us.

Perry Holley:
That’s all today from the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast.

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