Executive Podcast #329: Leading In Uncertain Times

Join Perry Holley and Chris Goede as they share strategies for leading effectively in uncertain times. This episode emphasizes transparent communication to ease team anxieties, reframing uncertainty as an opportunity for growth, and balancing optimism with adaptability. Packed with practical insights, it equips leaders to navigate challenges and inspire progress in a rapidly changing environment.
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Perry Holley:
Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast, where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others, and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. Hi, I’m Perry Holley of Maxwell Leadership facilitator and coach.
Chris Goede:
And I’m Chris Goede, executive vice president with Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining. One of the things that Perry, myself, and our team, we love to do is to work with teams and really help them enhance the leadership culture. At its simplest terms, we say that’s how you think, act, and interact with each other. And so, man, if that is something where you go, man, the culture of our organization needs just a little bit of help, needs leadership development, training, coaching. That’s what we do. That’s what we love to do. That’s why we do this podcast, spend nights on the road away from our family, just pouring into people around the world.
Chris Goede:
I want to encourage you to go to maxwellleadership.com/podcast. There you can click on this episode, fill out the form. Our team will receive that we’ll follow back up with you and talk about what that might look like. Well, today’s topic is titled Leading in Uncertain Times. What I love about this title is I felt like several years ago we talked about this all the time.
Perry Holley:
Yeah.
Chris Goede:
And we haven’t talked about it in a while, but yet it’s still relevant in every leader, every team, every organization’s life. And so I think there’s a lot of variables that go on from day to day. And the only thing you can be certain about is how uncertain things are always going to be. Whether it’s Covid, whatever it might be, they’re gonna. There’s gonna be uncertainty in your individual life. And so we thought, hey, how do you. How do you lead through that? What does that look like? So that’s what we’re going to talk a little about today.
Perry Holley:
And, you know, a couple years ago, it was mainly around Covid and that sort of thing, and that definitely was. Nobody knew. Nobody had an answer about anything. And to be quite fair, most times are uncertain. We don’t know what’s. What’s happening next, but we. We have to think about that. We had an election last year.
Perry Holley:
I think before the elections, it was very uncertain, but going forward now, the election, we have some. Some certainty, but then there’s a lot of uncertainty that’s been born out of that. So the reason this came up now was I was traveling and happened to be in the city where my son was and he invited me. He leads a business and he invited me to speak to his leadership team. I thought, wow, great honor. Yeah.
Chris Goede:
Let’s stop right there for just a minute. Don’t fly past that. That’s pretty cool.
Perry Holley:
Yeah. Well. And you’re actually that your son wants you to even meet his.
Chris Goede:
Was.
Perry Holley:
I was. Took that as a high compliment. But even to put my expertise to work for his team.
Chris Goede:
So. Good.
Perry Holley:
But I had one of their key questions was there’s so many uncertainties in the market around inflation, around what government’s doing, what prices are doing, about what businesses are doing, about what other countries are doing about war and all these things, and how do we plan and prepare for that. So I. I know that you’ve gone through a lot of leading, so I thought I would kind of table that up and see talk about what are some of the things we just need to be thinking about as leaders in uncertain times, which most times are.
Chris Goede:
Right, that’s right. I think the biggest lesson I’ve learned over the last several years in doing this is, man, you got to communicate, and then you got to communicate, and it’s about over communication. I remember back in the day that I think Andy Stanley, who’s a local pastor here, great leadership thought leader, would say, hey, they. They just want to. They want to hear your voice. They don’t really even care at times what you’re saying to them right now. You got to have some substance or they’re going to stop listening to you over time. But I think in great times of uncertainty, that’s very true.
Chris Goede:
I think there’s uncertainty. And like you mentioned every day of a leader’s life in organizations, and when you’re communicating, it reduces the fear and the anxiety a little bit of the team members of what they. They might be going through. Here’s one thing that I have learned is that when there is silence, what’s happening is that they’re telling themselves a story. And so my wife tells me this all the time, hey, don’t let them create the narrative, like, get out and get ahead of it and tell them what the narrative is. And so I think that’s really just something to think about. And I think as leaders, you should be communicating early, often. And then my favorite part of this is, transparently, you’re not going to have all the answers, by the way, and that’s okay.
Chris Goede:
But just be transparent with them. And when you’re doing that, it’s going to help this overall feeling that we all feel when we have uncertainty.
Perry Holley:
Totally agree you don’t want people trying to figure things out on their own because they do tell their own story, and it fills that vacuum. And then that. I appreciate you adding the piece about anxiety is increased because most anxiety comes from feeling like I’m not able to control that. So that makes me anxious. But so helping people to understand what are the controllables.
Chris Goede:
That’s right.
Perry Holley:
What can we do with that? You can do that. You have a great voice in that. One thing I like about the Communicate, Communicate, Communicate is that I want to make sure it’s a dialogue and getting their voice into that. I think so many times it’s easy to. I’ll just tell you how things are, right? No, I like to hear how you think things are and feel free to dissent. Feel free to debate me.
Chris Goede:
Yeah. Give me your thoughts on it.
Perry Holley:
I’m a little shocked still by some leaders that are insecure that. That somebody debates them. That disagreement is viewed as disrespect unless it’s done disrespectfully. I don’t think it’s disrespect. I think it’s saying they trust you enough to tell you what they think. But I agree with you. Communication has got to be key.
Chris Goede:
Yeah. So when you find yourself in uncertain times, embrace it like it’s. It’s gonna happen. Don’t. Don’t be surprised by it. Have confidence around it happening. And then think about, how do you reframe it? So one of the things that Perry put in here was talking about, you know, reframe it as an opportunity versus a threat. So I reflected on that and I said, so for me, here’s what uncertainty does.
Chris Goede:
Now, naturally, I am not an over the top creative thinker. I’m a very logical thinker. And so I was like, but you know what, though? When uncertainty shows up, what it does is it sparks creativity in me. And so it may be the lens of which I look at it, but I was like, that’s what happens. And I’m not overly a creative guy, but I’m looking at this with a different opportunity. I think also for me, I know that there’s going to be progress now. It’s going to be on the other side, probably a lot of hard work. But I know that what this uncertainty is driving is it’s going to be learning, it’s going to be development.
Chris Goede:
It might be, you know, hitting certain numbers different ways. And so that’s my two takeaways. And so then I wrote down this. I said, well, if that’s true, for me, how do I inspire my team to live that out as well? You hear us talk about the fact that people are watching you all the time and that leadership is contagious. And so if I’m acting that way, right. We talked about culture the very beginning here. How do we act, interact right with each other. What does that look like? So if I’m acting that way around uncertainty and I have somewhat of a resilience to it, I’m optimistic about it.
Chris Goede:
I have a mindset of, hey, this is going to benefit me. Your team is going to do the same thing. So I want to encourage you to man, how do we look at this thing as an opportunity versus a threat? And then what does that do for you personally?
Perry Holley:
Yeah, just a word on that about you developing as a leader. You’re developing your resilience, your ability to reframe things and see things differently. Not everybody can do that. Yes, especially they may not have the visuals that you have on the business for whatever number of reasons. Some people can’t process that the way you would like to or you’d like for them to. I just want to encourage you to embrace the, you know, as leaders, embrace this empathetic communication style that says, I suffered from this for years, not being empathetic and expecting everybody to process like me. The. The truth is, very few people process like you.
Perry Holley:
And that empathetic communication style removes judgment from your communication and maybe even some shaming from your communication. To be able to check in with people personally and professional is find out how they’re doing. If they’re feeling anxiety and fear about some situation that’s going on in your business, it doesn’t really help for us to come down on them and tell them, you know, toughen up, buttercup, something like that. That’s not helpful. That actually adds to the shame that goes with that. So why not have that empathetic style to show that you’re supportive of them? And I’ll tell you another thing I’ve learned is I try to encourage people on the team to support each other. It’s one thing for me, I’m going around being all empathetic, and then one of my teammates is shaming their own teammate. Don’t do that.
Perry Holley:
Help coach people that they can encourage and support each other.
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Chris Goede:
Yeah, during uncertain times, I think also bring the focus back, which this should always be part of the focus, but even more so kind of on the core values and the vision of the team and of the organization. When you do this, it reminds them of who we are. Right. And, and why we do what we do. We know that that is certain. Now. This is really hard for me at times because I often want to know the what and the how. Right.
Chris Goede:
Like, and you can’t necessarily have that in uncertain times, but you do will and always will be very certain about who we are and what are our values. What, what is something that we want to make sure we continue to stay focused on as a vision. That part is certain. So as you were talking about, like having each other, I think this is a great way for team members to remind each other as well. Not just the leader to the individual, but have them, man, remind, remind each other what your values are and what’s the value that you bring to a client. What’s the difference maker for you and your organization and what’s the purpose of you guys existing? And so the old saying of, hey, what you focus on is going to expand. It is. So I don’t want you to have your head up in the clouds, right? Because there’s got to be leaders, got to define reality.
Chris Goede:
So hear me say that. But I do think there’s a way that you can be thinking about the values and the vision in times of uncertainty.
Perry Holley:
I love that. You know, another thing I really think helped me is stay connected with stakeholders. And by stakeholders, I mean especially your customers, but could also be your suppliers, your partners, your investors, whomever it is for you. Is the why would I want to do that? Is I think the more I connect with others, I can get out of my own head. I start just listening to other people talk. Is it really as uncertain or, you know, fearful as I might feel like it is, it’s probably not as bad as I can tell myself. But if I’m listening to others, it not only lets me get a Little dose of reality, which could in fact be worse. But it also makes.
Perry Holley:
It’s a little camaraderie in that. That I’m not alone. And it’s not. It’s not just me. It’ not everywhere. It’s. It’s not permanent. Although the three P’s of permanent and.
Perry Holley:
And pervasiveness and personalness of it. No, it’s. It’s actually affecting a lot of folks. And we can now share. Once I stay connected, we can then dialogue. Yeah.
Chris Goede:
You know, another thing I was thinking about what you’re just talking is then also, are there individuals that you can be connected with or you do know or who do you know that I should know that have led similar organizations that you’re in or situations that you’re in of uncertainty that have led that before?
Perry Holley:
Yeah, yeah.
Chris Goede:
Because oftentimes, if I can find somebody like that, they’re like, hey, Cody, take it. Just calm down.
Perry Holley:
Nothing under the sun. I don’t know what you’re.
Chris Goede:
This is not uncertainty. Right. Like, you’re like. And that helps you. Again, someone that’s charted the course before you can maybe stand on their shoulders to see out a little bit further to understand what the certainty might be. And so I think that’s another great opportunity to be able to do that. One other thing is, is that uncertainty is going to uncover, I promise you, that the strategy you have in place can be better or is not working. And so you’re going to have to be adaptable.
Chris Goede:
You’re going to be willing to abandon certain things of how you’ve done them. By the way, you know, people are like, well, just because that’s how we’ve always done things. Well, that’s not going to work. You’re going to have to kind of move. And so. But remembering the vision and the values that you’re bringing will never change. This is what it made me think about. We used to do public workshops all the time.
Chris Goede:
And going back to 2020, that changed. And what I began to realize, I thought, oh, my gosh, we are going to do public workshops for us, which meant we went to different cities, sometimes 20, 30 cities a year, and we would put on leadership training and people would come from the community. And out of that, we found that, we said, oh, then they see the content and they’d be like, well, I want to have Perry or I want to have Chris come back in. And we would partner with organizations from there. And so a lot of things changed in uncertainty of doing that, of which I realized that strategy was not the right strategy to have public workshops. And so then we moved into virtually, and I was like, oh, this is great. We’re still getting the same effect. And then I started looking at it, and I was like, okay, now.
Chris Goede:
Now we don’t do them at all. Right. Like, and so you look at the span of this. What started in a time of uncertainty, where we couldn’t be in buildings, we couldn’t be around people, led to step one, that then led to step two, which is we don’t even do it anymore. Which means my strategy back is what I’m trying to tell you, Perry, right here in front of everybody. My strategy was horrible. Back when we first started, all the.
Perry Holley:
Chips on that table.
Chris Goede:
I know. I was like, this is gonna grow the business. And, you know, and so I look at that journey as you were posing these content, the question, and I go, oh, my gosh, this is. This is it right here. Like, this is an example of was it hard? Yes. Did I have to go through different things? People didn’t? Yes. But look at how we’ve produced and learned and grown the other side. And just the.
Chris Goede:
The lens of which you can look through opportunities like that will change.
Perry Holley:
Yeah. The last thing I’ll add is just maintaining realistic optimism. And key word there is realistic.
Chris Goede:
Yeah.
Perry Holley:
People are. If you’re overly optimistic and unreasonably optimistic in some areas, some people could be hurting, some people could be suffering, some people are in fear and anxiety, and you’re all, rah, rah, rah, that’s not helpful. But knowing what is it we can control? Control the controllables. Be optimistic about the future. Be optimistic about opportunity. We are true to our values and our. And our mission and vision, our purpose. Like you said before, we know what we know.
Perry Holley:
We’ll do what we can do, and we’re never going to quit trying to do that. But that’s right. Being realistically optimistic. Don’t let whatever is troubling, don’t let it drag you down. Keep your optimism up and find the way through. That’s what we do.
Chris Goede:
That’s what we do. I love that. And I want to. Another story that I was thinking about, that this will hit home for you because of your dad and his years in the service. But I thought about, I’m not a big movie guy, and once I watch them, I don’t watch them again. And then I have a hard time remembering, I don’t know, actors, names, all those things. But for some reason this morning, I thought about the Apollo 13 movie, and I thought about the uncertainty that happened as they were going through that process and the teamwork that happened in there, the innovation that they had to come up with and even the creativity to get back in and those uncertain times and the obviously the leadership both from obviously command center, but also, you know, in Apollo 13. And so I was thinking about that.
Chris Goede:
I was like now that’s an extreme case of uncertainty. But all of that happens in every little bit of uncertainty that we have. It just won’t be to that scale. Right, right. And so as I wrap up and then I’ll throw it to you then. Closing comments. Whether about Apollo 13 or just wrap.
Perry Holley:
It up, I was there, my dad was at the Cape and and I still watch the movie and I’m anxious to see how it ends.
Chris Goede:
Right. You don’t know. So top three things that are your takeaway, clarity and communication. Please make sure you’re over communicating. We started with it, I think it was a great question. The front end, you got to over communicate. The other thing is be open to innovation and change. We gave you a couple of examples of that in our life, what that looked like.
Chris Goede:
And then finally, man make sure as a, a leader, make sure someone that’s influencing other people, you’re leading the community or family, that your emotional intelligence is continuing to grow because that is the connection between you and helping other people through uncertainty. Because part of emotional intelligence obviously starts with self. So that that’s going to help you but then also it’s going to be able to help you help other people through times of uncertainty.
Perry Holley:
Super well, as Chris remind you early, you can go to maxwellleadership.com/podcast. You can learn a lot about our offerings. You can learn about our other podcasts that we offer as well as leave us a comment or a question there. We love hearing from you. Very grateful you spend this time with us. That’s all today from the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast.
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