Firm Feedback with Jeff Hancher – Part 1

Perry Holley:
Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast, where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others, and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. Hi, I’m Perry Holley, a Maxwell Leadership facilitator and coach.

Chris Goede:
And I’m Chris Goede, executive vice president of Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining. Super excited today because Perry’s been getting tired of me, and so we decided we were going to bring a guest in the studio finally, because he’s like, go to. You are. He tried to give me feedback. It didn’t go over really well. And so it’s ideal. We’re going to have a guest and we’re going to talk about feedback.

Chris Goede:
Right.

Jeff Hancher:
Win, win.

Chris Goede:
So it’s a win, win. Yeah. So we are super excited to have you first. You probably have listened to us hopefully over 300 times and you’ve heard us say our URL of where to go and get the download for today’s lesson. The form fill out, ask a question. What are you dealing with as a leader? That has changed. So just. I know you usually tune us out until we get to the past.

Chris Goede:
They’ve already. Fast forward to this. Yeah, back up a little bit. The new URL is MaxwellLeadership.com/ExecutivePodcast. Perry and I feel extremely excited. We’re beginning to move up the ranks here at Maxwell Leadership, and they’re giving us our own URL. Yeah, that’s right.

Perry Holley:
Partitioning this on the side.

Chris Goede:
Well, today we are going to talk about feedback. And so we are super excited to have Jeff Hancher in the studio with us. And he has just written a book called Firm Feedback in a Fragile World. And Maxwell Leadership has been the privilege of partnering with you and to help publish it. We’re going to tell you how to get that book. It’s pre order right now, and at the end, okay, so you got to hang with us. Got to hang with us. But I promise you, by the time we go through some of the content and you learn a little bit more about Jeff, you’re going to want to order that book.

Chris Goede:
So super excited about. This is a topic that Perry and I have talked about periodically, and it’s a topic that needs to be talked about more. This has to happen in corporate America at a different pace. You know, we’ll get into this, but I know leaders think they do a better job than they actually are doing, or they even think they do it and they don’t. And their people are like, we want it. Like, we. We need that feedback. So Jeff’s a leadership expert and he has our heart and our passion.

Chris Goede:
He’s dedicated to individuals and organizations. So I love that. The personal and the professional side of that. After starting in an entry level position to try and support his sick parents, Jeff built a 20 year career in leadership roles with a Fortune 500 company. So we’re super excited that you’re here. Of all the topics for you to be in corporate America for 20 years, to be now doing what you’re doing as a coach, as someone who’s mentoring and developing people, why feedback? I think Perry and I know, right, because we’re in the weeds with you on it. But from your lens, tell us why. What was the driving factor to get this book out of you?

Jeff Hancher:
You know, there’s a lot of leadership topics and subjects. And first off, thanks for having me, guys. But when I came, you know, to this topic, I wanted to solve a big problem. And during the pandemic, I was thinking about what workshop or how can I serve people best right now? I took 10 years worth of succession planning notes from that Fortune 500 job that I had and put them all into an algorithm. And it spit out the top two things that were holding hundreds of leaders back from moving forward in their impact and moving forward in their career. The number one was emotional intelligence or a lack of. But I felt like that had already been talked about pretty heavily. But number two was the lack of challenging leadership or how to deliver a hard conversation effectively and deliver it as a gift versus abuse.

Jeff Hancher:
And so I started preparing this content. I launched a workshop, and the workshop has sold out every time since. So the market responded. From a personal standpoint, I’m a product of feedback. You know, growing up in poverty and we didn’t have a whole lot. I didn’t have a lot of direction. It was at the. I’d love to tell you that I had 12 promotions in a Fortune 500 company because I’m awesome.

Jeff Hancher:
That would be a lie. I had great leaders, and these leaders allowed me to borrow their belief in me. And it was through tough feedback, hard feedback, but feedback that they earned the right. And it literally transformed who I became. So now it’s pay it forward time. And I want to equip leaders with this tool so that they can help their people reach their potential.

Chris Goede:
Can I go back to one thing you just said? Okay. I don’t want our listeners to miss this. We’re gonna go off topic for just a minute. Perry’s like, already we’re not even pastor.

Perry Holley:
Quote, this is the end of the intro.

Chris Goede:
You said 10 years of journaling, of succession planning. How many of us I know, I don’t like, I am horrible at journaling. So our listeners know, like, I just, I look at a white piece of paper and I just freeze. That’s why Perry and I make such a good team. Cause he does him. What drove that practice in you of, as you’re going through corporate America, as you’re leading people, as you’re being led by people to begin to journal that, the succession planning of what you were thinking, not knowing you were going to write a book someday, not knowing you’re going to do a workshop or whatever, what was driving that. And just give our listeners really quick a little bit of encouragement of the importance of doing that so that when they’re on the backside of their leadership career, whatever, they want to do something different, the playbook’s going to be right there for them.

Jeff Hancher:
I mean, failure is a teacher if you allow it to be. And I failed a lot in leadership. I wanted to be a World Class Level 4 Leader and I wasn’t. I was making all the mistakes. You know, promoting the leader that had great results.

Chris Goede:
The individual contributor.

Jeff Hancher:
Exactly. Promoting the leader that was the culture flag bearer.

Chris Goede:
And then they weren’t getting anything done.

Jeff Hancher:
Couldn’t get anything done. I made all the mistakes. And so I just started kind of going back and learning from my mistakes and trying to get the pieces to the puzzle right. So that I could have somebody that already had a proven track record of leadership. You know, most hall of fame football coaches didn’t score a lot of touchdowns.

Chris Goede:
That’s right.

Jeff Hancher:
Not to say that there aren’t some, but I started learning through that. So I wanted to journal that. I wanted to look at the notes so that I didn’t keep repeating the same mistakes. And success leaves a trail and so does failure. And you can learn from both. Wisdom comes really from two things. Failing or getting around people that have. I prefer to get around people that have.

Jeff Hancher:
And so through my failure, but also seeing what wasn’t working because I was in succession planning meetings with other top leaders in the company. So I got to observe their failures as well.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, yeah, that’s good. That’s good.

Jeff Hancher:
And that’s, that’s why I did that.

Perry Holley:
Something else you said, you’re talking about leaders that were hard on you. I just had a guy come to my mind is that I’ve had a lot of bosses over the years, but only two that I can think of that really challenged me Pushed me, gave me that hard feedback. So that was a really, a turning point.

Jeff Hancher:
Huge.

Perry Holley:
One thing I read in the book that you kind of looked at disengagement and then Gallup said that 65% of managers believe that they give feedback. The millennials they were interviewed said only 17% thought that was true. That was a big, big gap there. But you said it led to a lot of the disengagement problem. Yes, they’re having. So we talk a lot about the engagement problem and how leaders can really engage their team. So what’s the connection between feedback and engagement?

Jeff Hancher:
Yeah, well, it’s a $9 trillion problem is what we’re having. Quiet quitting, which we all have heard about, is a 9 estimated $9 trillion global problem annually. Now look, combine that with leaders needing to deal with social injustice, the great resignation post, pandemic dynamics, multiple generations in the workplace, it’s a hard time to lead, but it’s the greatest leadership opportunity we’ve ever had. But if we’re not leading well, it’s clear there’s going to be disengagement. Chris, you opened the conversation by saying some leaders feel like they’re doing it well, but they’re really not. No leader woke up this morning, say, I’m going to do this poorly. Right. You know, I believe leaders have a heart to serve or I’m not going.

Perry Holley:
To give any feedback today. They won’t do that. We don’t, we think we want to.

Jeff Hancher:
But yeah, I mean, the turnover numbers tell us there’s the spirit of yolo. Like if it’s not working out, I’ll go somewhere else. The greatest recruiting tool there is and the greatest retention tool there is is leadership. And I tell leaders all the time, you will attract who you are, not what you want. We know what we want, but who are we? And whether people believe this or not or they’re saying it, everybody wants feedback. Everybody in the core of who they are. You know, Mark Cole says it all the time. People deserve to be led.

Jeff Hancher:
Well, that means that you got to lean into tough conversations and you do that by earning the right.

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Chris Goede:
When you talk about giving feedback and these leaders, you say to be able to do it, it’s like walking the tightrope. Now there’s two problems with that for me. Number one, I’m afraid of heights. Okay. Number two, look at me, I’m not getting on a tightrope. Not a tightrope. Right. But why? So give us from your research, like why are leaders not doing this? Why, why do we struggle to give that knowing? You know, Mark and I talk about this quite a bit.

Chris Goede:
Knowing that on the other side of that feedback is a benefit. Right. If you do it the right way, which we’re going to get into some of that. But like what keeps us from wanting to do that? Like why do we not want to get on a tightrope? Tightrope other than being afraid of heights and knowing that this doesn’t get on a tightrope.

Jeff Hancher:
No doubt.

Chris Goede:
Right.

Jeff Hancher:
You know, I think looking at the benefits of it is one side of it. But I talk about the acronym FEAR in the. And fear is the underlying thing of why you wouldn’t deliver firm feedback. Right. And you know, the F is the fallout.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Jeff Hancher:
You know what, what if I do this and there is major fallout? What if they quit? What if all of these things happen? The E is emotion. Have you ever given someone tough feedback and they cried? Of course. And if you haven’t, you haven’t been doing it right. They get emotional.

Chris Goede:
Does this include family or are we just talking about work here? What are we talking?

Jeff Hancher:
Probably more so a family.

Chris Goede:
Like no dad. No.

Jeff Hancher:
There’s emotion that comes with firm feedback. I did a whole episode once on what to do when they cry, but people get mad. I remember vividly sitting across the desk from somebody and seeing their fists start to clinch. That’s not a fun leadership moment. I could have probably done things better, but there was emotion that was happening with that. You know, thinking through this fear dynamic. The A is amateur mostly. A lot of leaders, to my surprise, have just not been taught how to deliver proper feedback.

Jeff Hancher:
Or they might be new and they’re just modeling what they’ve seen. And then you have this R piece which is like, what if there’s retaliation? What if I do this and they go to my boss, what if. Or my boss’s boss, and it ruins my credibility. HR oh, my gosh. Legal. You know, and so this fear holds them back. The antidote to thinking about if I give tough feedback, there could be fallout. Is this one mindset shift.

Jeff Hancher:
What if you don’t? What if you don’t? If we, if we look back to our Mount Rushmore of leaders, these are four people that without them, we wouldn’t be who we are. Were they tough on you? They certainly were, yeah. Did they care deeply? They certainly did. So we know it’s possible and it’s through earning the right to give tough feedback that we don’t just become bosses people report to, but we become leaders that people don’t want to let down.

Perry Holley:
Go with that thought right there about earning the right, because that to me is something I don’t think many people think about, is that it is, you have a responsibility to give feedback, but you have to earn the right to do it. Tell me, put some words around that.

Jeff Hancher:
Well, one of my favorite leadership questions is this, Perry, and it’s, why is success important to you? You know, because it’s usually not your balance sheet that drives them, right? It’s usually not your revenue goals and your KPIs that are driving people. It’s, you know, there was a time that why success was important to me is because I didn’t want my mom and dad have to cut pills and have to get from copay to copay. You know, there’s, there are real people that we’re leading here, and we have to understand why success is important to them and tie business results to that success. You know, earning the right is spelled T I M E right? And this is spending time with people. If you’re not doing one on one debriefs with everybody in your company, you’re not investing in the right things. I know we don’t have time to do that, but it’s the most important thing that we can do to reproduce ourselves in other people. And so earning the right is giving people time, setting clear expectations, and giving feedback around those expectations, but not missing the third element of the framework, which is accountability. Those three things have to be in play to earn the right to have tough conversations.

Perry Holley:
Well, I was going to say relationship. The time is where the relationship is built. And that’s where the, I guess trust, there’s got to be a component of that as well.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. And I love accountability. Right. Because you could have very direct growth conversations, but then if you’re not being held accountable to that or people that you’re leading, you’re not holding accountable to the results of what we’re trying to drive out of that conversation. It’s for not. Right? It’s for not. And so, you know, Perry and I talk a lot about sports on this podcast. It’s just part of.

Chris Goede:
We love it and it’s part of our background. And, and I think some of the greatest coaches that I had now, they may not have delivered in the right way and they may not have seen my tears through the football helmet, you know, but they were there. But the thing about the accountability was after that feedback, like, it wasn’t like, oh, okay, it’s okay, you messed up again. Right. I was accountable like that. Remember what we talked about? It’s the same thing, I think when we’re leading our people. The other thing I just keep thinking about is all this is 100%, not only in alignment with our DNA, but with the methodology of the five levels of leadership.

Jeff Hancher:
For sure.

Chris Goede:
I mean, when we’re talking about influence and how leaders and you know this, you’re bathed in it, grow in that. It takes time. Right. But we got to get to level two and we got to do that. Well, not. It’s not a buddy, buddy relationship. It’s connecting with them, it’s spending time with them, all these things to be able to get to a point where we’re trying to be productive as a team and we got to have a tough conversation. And then when you’re developing them, it’s even a deeper conversation, I think on the feedback thing.

Jeff Hancher:
Yeah.

Chris Goede:
And so segueing that into thinking about level two, we talk a lot about connecting with people from a communication standpoint is a two way street. And you talk about feedback being that as well. Right. It’s not only us being able to deliver it, but how do I create a safe space, you know, so we, we’ve done some work on the psychological safety of the workforce. Right. So not only how do I deliver it, but I create a space that’s safe for them to receive that, talk about that process as leaders and what do we need to be aware of and why is that so important? So that all three win, the organization wins, they win and we win as a leader.

Jeff Hancher:
Yeah. I mean, first and foremost, you have to have A genuine care for people. You know, I always tell people, if you don’t genuinely care for people, don’t get into leadership. It’s like, it’s like petting a cat backwards. You can, but nobody’s having a good time. Right. The cat’s miserable, everybody’s miserable. Right.

Chris Goede:
Mark that down, whatever that. Are we in? We just talked about petting a cat backwards for the first time, Right? Yeah.

Jeff Hancher:
So first off, like love, genuinely want to see people get to their best. But I will tell you this, earn this, earning the right and how to create an environment of feedback. It has to start with setting expectations. Expectations have to be clear, they have to be reasonable. We shouldn’t be asking people to run four minute miles because that’s what we need, Right. It’s what, what is possible. And are we tying those expectations back to why it’s good for the employee? Why is it good for the people that we’re leading? The feedback then comes through an investment because then once the expectations are clear and you’re giving feedback that is through smart goals or one on one debriefs, now we’re not even looking at feedback as good or bad. We’re just looking at it as data.

Jeff Hancher:
It’s just data.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Jeff Hancher:
And so earning the right is understanding why success is important. If we, the three of us, a quick role play. We’re going to a big conference representing the Maxwell brand and we’re leaving in two weeks. And this is the meeting for us to prepare. And I say, guys, I know how important your brand is. At this meeting we’re all going to have a chance to take the stage. We’re going to meet a lot of amazing senior level leaders. If I saw any blind spots that day that was holding you back from the brand that you’re trying to build, would you want me to tell you, Chris?

Chris Goede:
100%.

Jeff Hancher:
So if I smell some coffee breath or whatnot, you want to know?

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Jeff Hancher:
All right. So I’m committed to doing that for you because I want to see you win. Now, two weeks from now, we’re getting out of the car, right? And I say, Chris, you remember a couple weeks ago about the coffee breath? Well, I got some great news. Today is that day. Today is that day. And I pull a mint out and.

Chris Goede:
I give it to you. Yeah.

Jeff Hancher:
What do you say to me?

Chris Goede:
Thank you.

Jeff Hancher:
Thank you.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Jeff Hancher:
Now, telling somebody they have bad breath, that’s a tough conversation. If me and you are in the convenience store and you’re behind me in line and I turn around, same data and I say, sir, your breath stings. You’re offended.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. 100%.

Jeff Hancher:
Same data.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Jeff Hancher:
Here’s the difference. In one aspect, I earned the right.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Jeff Hancher:
In the other, I didn’t. Leaders, we’re not here to. We’re not here to be right.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Jeff Hancher:
We’re here to serve.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Jeff Hancher:
We’re here to do what’s right. Setting the table is so important. And tying that tough conversation that inevitably we have to have back to why it’s good for them. Because now I’m just giving you a gift that we already talked about.

Chris Goede:
That’s right. That’s right. That’s good. That’s so good.

Perry Holley:
We’ve just been having conversations on the podcast over the last months about the need, that everybody needs challenge, but they also need support. And I was. I smiled when I, in reading the book, saw you tell a story about a leader named Shawn that happened at a very tough time in your life. Your mom had just passed away and you came back to work, and rightfully so. Your mind wasn’t there, and Sean was a special leader in your life. And I wonder if you would tell a little bit of the story. But tied into the need for the challenge part of feedback and the support that you provide, it’s a balance of these things.

Jeff Hancher:
Yeah. It’s when I tell you I’m passionate about this subject, it’s stories like this of why I’m so passionate about it. You know, here I am, a blue collar worker in a big company, didn’t have a lot of career aspiration, didn’t even know what climbing the corporate ladder meant. All I knew was there was these people running around that, you know, they wore shiny shoes and they drove these fancy cars, you probably heard of them, called Honda Accords. And I’m like, I want to be like those guys. Like, I want to drive those fancy cars. So I work hard, I’m winning awards, I get promoted into sales. I didn’t know anything about sales.

Jeff Hancher:
I was just there to work hard and learn as much as I could. I’m doing pretty well at this. I’m driving a Honda Accord for goodness sake. You know, I bought my first suit at Joseph A Bank. Life is good. You know, we were looking at actual homes to get my parents out of the one bedroom, high rise government apartment and get them into a neighborhood. I mean, I mean, we are making ground here. And I got a call one morning from my dad that I had gotten quite a few times in my life, which was, you need to get to the hospital, Mom’s in bad shape.

Jeff Hancher:
And I went like I always went. And this day, it was different. You know, this day I would hold my mom for the last time. And this emotion hit me. Everything I was working so hard for, I felt like it was just ripped away from me. And all of a sudden I didn’t care about the, the suit, I didn’t care about the shoes. I certainly didn’t care about the Honda Accord. I went into a dark place, lost all motivation.

Jeff Hancher:
My boss at the time, he kind of let me have a little bit of space, but after a few weeks, he pulled me in and he said these words, he said, enough’s enough. Now, this is a guy that not only told me how to overcome ejections, role played with me till the wee hours of the evening, would jump in the car and, and observe me on sales calls, would let me observe him on sales calls, would ask all the right leadership questions. This is a guy that took me into the restroom and taught me how to tie a Windsor knot and what color stays were.

Chris Goede:
Wow.

Jeff Hancher:
This is above and beyond extra mile servant leader. And when that guy said, enough’s enough, you’ve had time to grieve, but I’m not going to let you waste this opportunity. And he said, jeff, you have two choices. You can be the person that I know that you can be or you can’t be on my team. You have an 18 month old son. You’ve always told me, bad breath, you don’t want your kids to ever experience the life that you had. And I feel like you’re throwing that all away and I can’t let you do it. Now.

Jeff Hancher:
If he had not set that table prior, there’s no way I’m taking this feedback. I would have said, see you later, pal. Have a good life. Now think about what’s happened since that conversation. I went on to win nine presidents, clubs, get promoted 10 more times. I’m sitting at the John Maxwell podcast studio for goodness sake.

Perry Holley:
Top of the mountain.

Chris Goede:
We are here. We have here.

Jeff Hancher:
Like I don’t say that in a braggadocious way. I got a long way to go.

Chris Goede:
But John impacted your journey away and this is a milestone.

Jeff Hancher:
This leader, imagine if he doesn’t have the conversation, does any of the impact that I can have happen? That’s the importance of it. And that’s why we have to lean into the tough conversations. What if we don’t? And have we earned the right? That’s the framework.

Chris Goede:
So good.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, I read that. It was it really it, it was emotional to see the story and how it affects and that you got to be tough. You got the right amount of support, but you got a challenge in there. I think the cheerleader. Many leaders. I know I did this. And I’m naturally good at encouraging as part of my temperament, my personality. But I’m a cheerleader.

Perry Holley:
I’m your best cheerleader. But when it comes time to tell you something hard, I’ll just. You keep going. You’re doing great. I don’t ever. And so I had to learn a lot of this stuff the hard way.

Jeff Hancher:
Yeah.

Perry Holley:
Which was people need to hear the hard challenge, but they need to love sport too.

Jeff Hancher:
Well.

Chris Goede:
And you think about it. We’ll have the conversation right away. If it’s a fatal flaw for the organization. What if we took the approach of it’s a fatal flaw for Jeff’s growth right at that moment. The. The mint example may have not been a fatal flaw. However, it’s the same principle that became a fatal flaw potentially for you that your boss shared that one day, Sean, that completely changed the trajectory of life. And I love you.

Chris Goede:
Said he earned the right.

Jeff Hancher:
That’s it.

Chris Goede:
That is the five levels of leadership. That. That’s it. Like, that’s why we. Man, that’s why we are bent on everything that we do as leaders. Like, it makes sense and allows you to do that so well. Let me wrap us up. The good news is Jeff’s coming back for another episode.

Chris Goede:
He doesn’t know that we’re going to make him stay here.

Jeff Hancher:
I’m happy.

Chris Goede:
Matter of fact, he may be sitting here and Perry’s going to be super excited because he’s asked him to give me some feedback. But I think what we heard today, just even some simple stories, some simple things you bring out in the book, is critical to a leader’s success journey. Yeah, success looks different. Maybe we should say significant because it’s about impacting people. And I think this is something that, man, people need to understand even if they develop a system and a process. And Perry and I have tried over the years to say, hey, here’s a couple things. Just, like, stick to this, right? You go so much more in depth to that. And I think we talk about leadership gaps.

Chris Goede:
And I wrote this down, right? I wrote, we know it matters as leaders if we’ve led anything. We know that feedback matters. The employees crave it. They. They want it, right? They want to get. You think about even some. Some children, right?

Perry Holley:
They.

Chris Goede:
They want structure. Whether you want, like, they want that feedback so that they know. And we want it as employees, too. Because ultimately we want to win President’s awards. We want to. Well, how do we get there? We get it from, from feedback. So there’s this massive gap and it’s one of the most undelivered tools in leadership. And so this is going to help people understand and develop a tool to be able to use it.

Chris Goede:
So super, super grateful. Here’s my challenge for our listeners today. I love the fear acronym. We often will say, hey, maybe you ought to sit down and do a little self assessment. Where do I, what, what are these four do I struggle with? And then we always say, hey, if you’re bold enough, ask those that report directly to you or that you work with or maybe as we said some of our family members and say, you know, which of the four do I struggle with or what comes across as me not being able to be a better significant other, a better dad, a better boss. And I need you to tell me because I want to go to work. And all of that is going to be right here for you in this book that we are privileged at Maxwell Leadership to publish and to partner with Jeff. And so this book itself, you can go to FirmFeedbackBook.com and you mentioned real quick, I’m gonna throw it back to you for just a second.

Chris Goede:
You can pre order it right now. It’s coming out on June 17th. But you said hey, right now if you go ahead and order it, it comes with all the free bonuses.

Jeff Hancher:
Oh yeah.

Chris Goede:
Talk a little bit about that as we kind of wrap up. I’ll throw it back to Perry after you’re done. But I can’t encourage you enough. Not only do I want you to stay and listen to our next episode, we’re gonna get a little bit deeper with Jeff. Go order this book. So tell them a little bit about the bonuses that come with.

Jeff Hancher:
Yeah. The good news is the message is simple. The framework is simple, not easy. It is simple. We want the book in leaders hands. We’re not here to help anybody win leadership trivia games. We’re here to execute. And so we want to serve people by giving them these bonuses.

Jeff Hancher:
Even with single order books, you’re getting bonuses. The 52 week question guide for Leaders. We have everything clear up to full blown curriculum that comes with the book for bulk orders, a video series where I break down each chapter. What you should be looking at in the chapter and the red flags. Look, the book itself has application and questions at the end of each chapter if you get none of the bonuses and then we’re doing a reverse interview where you get to hear my heart behind each chapter of the book, why it matters and how to execute with it. And certainly we would love for you to be a part of the launch team as well.

Chris Goede:
Love it. That’s Good.

Jeff Hancher:
Thank you. FirmFeedbackBook.com I love it.

Perry Holley:
Fantastic. Well, thank you Jeff.

Jeff Hancher:
Thank you guys. Appreciate it so much.

Perry Holley:
As a reminder, if you want to know more about the book, you got that at FirmFeedbackBook.com. You heard that. If you also if you want to know, get the learner guide for this episode. Learn more about the five levels of leadership that Chris is talking about or any of our offerings or see others in our podcast family. You can do all that at MaxwellLeadership.com/ExecutivePodcast. We you can also leave us a comment or a question there. We love hearing from you and very grateful you’d spend this time with us. That’s all today from the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast.

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