Firm Feedback with Jeff Hancher – Part 2

Perry Holley:
Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast, where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others, and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. Hi, I’m Perry Holley, a Maxwell Leadership facilitator and coach.

Chris Goede:
And I’m Chris Goede, executive vice president with Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining. You guys know Perry and I encourage you all the time. We don’t want you just listening to this podcast by yourself. We want you listening to it with your team. And then the first five minutes of your next team meeting, find out what they’re learning and ask some questions. It’s a great small little development tool that if you’re not doing already, just take a baby step. Here’s why this is super important because not only last week on the episode, but then today we’re going to continue a conversation around feedback, which is we discussed being one of the most critical leadership tools that is really undelivered.

Chris Goede:
It’s undeveloped in us as leaders. And so Jeff Hancher wrote a book called Firm Feedback in a Fragile World. We had the privilege of walking alongside Jeff and publishing the book. But this is another one of those episodes. Send this out to your team and then begin to have those conversations. If you want to leave us some comments, maybe you have a question or a topic that you’d love for Perry to kind of dig into and then us to talk about. We would love for you to visit MaxwellLeadership.com/ExecutivePodcast there you can put that information right in that website in that form. You can fill out a form too there.

Chris Goede:
If you have some needs that we may be able to serve you with coaching, training or consulting. Well, this book comes out on the 17th, June 17th. You can pre order it right now. We’re going to tell you how to do that at the end of today’s episode, but we’re going to dive in. I want to encourage you. If you missed last week’s episode, it really kind of set the stage for Jeff’s heart and kind of the why behind it. I’m going to have you share just a a little glimpse of that as we get started. To those that missed it, we’ll go back and watch it.

Chris Goede:
But to set today up, I want you to do that. We talked really about the passion behind it. Today we’re going to talk about practical ways to dig in and to develop the ability and to grow in getting feedback. So, man, Jeff, first of all, again, thank you for the opportunity to partner with Maxwell Leadership and Our publishing team and to do this, but also for tackling this topic because it’s a big deal out there and whether we’re having tough conversations, critical conversations, whatever you tough feedback, all of that is really geared around the same thing that we all need some help with. So take just a minute. Thank you for being here in studio.

Jeff Hancher:
Thank you.

Chris Goede:
Tell us a little bit about your why behind the book. And then we’re gonna dive into some practical ways to help people understand how to give feedback and then also help their team receive the feedback.

Jeff Hancher:
Absolutely. And thank you guys for having me. And thank you for the listener to tune in. You know, publishing with Maxwell has exceeded all expectations. My very first book, I didn’t know what I was doing, but I had this passion on the inside that I wanted to get out to the world. So it’s been a great partnership and a great tool to get this actual to pr. You know, the heart behind the book is to ensure that leaders are equipped to help others reach their fullest potential. I seriously believe that one of the biggest things that holds leaders back is how to navigate feedback.

Jeff Hancher:
You know, you have the leader that’s passive, you have the leader that’s aggressive. You might even be passive aggressive. We may just adopt what our leaders in the past have done. And so there’s not a lot of great playbooks out there. And a lot of leaders are naive. The polls are telling us that. The surveys are telling us leaders are naive. They think they’re doing it well, and they’re not.

Jeff Hancher:
This book, the heart of this book is to give a simple framework that hopefully is going to catch some blind spots and help leaders drive bigger impact.

Chris Goede:
That is amazing.

Perry Holley:
So, Jeff, something you just mentioned around how we experience feedback. You talk in the book, you tell a story about your introduction to feedback, which was no feedback, and that when you got into the workspace and feedback showed up and I kind of got me thinking about, have we all been corrupted in our come from around feedback based on how we grew up, how we saw it?

Jeff Hancher:
I mean, there’s no question about it that everybody listening, everybody on planet Earth, who you are today is a product of the feedback you’ve been given or the feedback that’s missing. That’s it. That’s who we are. Now, look, let me throw this out there. My parents were great people. They loved well, but they were very, very sick my whole life, since the day I was born. And so they. When I tell you, they were literally fighting for their lives.

Jeff Hancher:
They literally were. And so you know that that mean we didn’t always get the feedback that we needed. We didn’t always get the discipline that we needed. We felt loved, there’s no doubt about it. But we never got a lot of hard feedback because I think they came from this camp of life’s hard enough on these two boys. They wanted to make it as good as it could be, but it really didn’t help us, it didn’t prepare us. And my first experience with this was in high school. You know, I was a pretty good backyard basketball player.

Jeff Hancher:
You know, I could run with the big guys and play, and, you know, I was a pretty good junior high player. And here I am going into high school, and I remember a coach of mine telling me that if you join my team, you’re not going to play the way I’ve seen you play. And I simply said, then I’m not playing for you. And so he gave me feedback after that, and he said, you know, you’re ruining a really big opportunity to be a part of something special. And my fear is, is that you’re not going to take my feedback and you’re going to end up making a lot of bad decisions. He knew a little bit about my background and was trying to give me hard feedback and structure. And so I never did play another minute of basketball. And that led to a pretty tough high school life, brushes with the law, a lot of bad decisions.

Jeff Hancher:
And so now I get into the military, and that feedback style is very different. You know, I land at Fort Jackson, South Carolina, and there’s no collaboration happening. Like, it’s just right here. So, yeah, I think your childhood definitely plays a really, really big part in that. And we have to know that as leaders is that we’re leading people that come from all walks of life.

Perry Holley:
And that’s just the need for an instruction manual. You may not know what you need to know about feedback. I just tell people what I think. No, no, There’s a framework, like you said, there’s earning the right. The FEAR acronym we talked about last week. There’s so many things that I think could really add to a leader. You think I’m going to buy a book on feedback? Yeah, you should buy a book. I really enjoyed the book and the stories.

Perry Holley:
The way you make it real is very applicable to everyday life, I think. Family.

Chris Goede:
I love what you’re saying right there. Because what came to mind was there are some people and we’ve all worked for those leaders that enjoy giving feedback or they. Because it. Because it’s fulfilling to them, they need to Read the book, too, though.

Jeff Hancher:
Oh, yeah.

Chris Goede:
Because they’re giving it the wrong way. Yeah, Right. It’s like they woke up ready to give somebody some feedback today. Not necessarily, like, your experience. Right. In the military. Some of it could be, though, for those that we’re working with or we’re serving with, they say, no, I’m good. I don’t need that.

Chris Goede:
I would challenge you to say, are you really doing it the right way? To your point, is it. Is it a model? Because, remember, we need to lead people the way they need to be led. We need to communicate to people the way they need to be communicated to, not the way we want to communicate.

Jeff Hancher:
That’s right.

Chris Goede:
I love the conversation at times, and I say, now, tell me, what did you hear me say? And I learned this from Mark. And I’ll say this. And Mark’s like, that’s not what I said. And Mark’s like, well, that’s not your fault. That’s my fault. Because of the communication. It’s the same thing with feedback. And so I’m sitting there listening to you going, yeah, you know, all of those former leaders I had that were like, you need to read it, too.

Perry Holley:
Yes, we can all get better.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Jeff Hancher:
I love that you think about that, Chris. On that note of that leader that says, I don’t have any trouble giving feedback, they’re also the one that probably introduces the new employee by saying, you know, hi, I’m Jeff. I’m very direct and firm. And you’re like, great. This is going to be a blast.

Chris Goede:
So excited to be here. Yeah.

Jeff Hancher:
What we talk about in the book, and if you get nothing else, is that my hope is that the leader understands that not all feedback is created equal. You know, I don’t put, you know, beef jerky or a Snickers bar on my fishing hook. I put a worm on it. Why? Because that’s what they eat. Although I love beef jerky and Snickers.

Chris Goede:
That’s great.

Jeff Hancher:
You know, I put on that hook. I know the fish wants to eat. And so we talk in the book about the types of feedback and when to use it. Directive feedback, supportive feedback, collaborative feedback. And we all have already all done this. I have leaders all the time that say, I wish I could lead these people like I lead my house. And I’m like, why don’t you? Yeah, because what you’re talking about is earning the right. I mean, if you see a stray dog on the side of the road, you have instant empathy, instant compassion.

Jeff Hancher:
You pull the car over, what do you I mean, you can’t just say, hey, Pop, jump in the car. I’m going to take it from here. Your life’s going to be great. No, the dog is scared. The dog has probably been beaten or hurt or abused. That’s why it’s in that position. So you go to try to help the dog and what’s it do? It bites you. You don’t give up on the dog.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Jeff Hancher:
You go get treats and you spend time and you can you compel the dog that you can be trusted. And by the way, I mean no disrespect, but this is an animal.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Jeff Hancher:
These are humans we’re leading.

Chris Goede:
That’s right.

Jeff Hancher:
We need to understand there’s all walks of life coming into our leadership influence.

Chris Goede:
Love it.

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Chris Goede:
So you talked just a minute ago about the style. Right. Of feedback. There’s also different even approaches to it. Okay. And so in the book, you talk about a passive feedback, aggressive feedback that was an example of your military days and others, maybe corporate for some of you or us in some of our times over. And then passive aggressive feedback. Then you mentioned the assertive feedback.

Chris Goede:
Can you talk us through each one of these? Because I know and I love how we started the conversation about your roots. Right. And how you were raised. And again, I love my parents as well, but there’s, there’s some of that passive aggressive that I was parented through. And I find myself naturally in my own home doing it. And sometimes if I am not careful, I find myself doing it at work as well. And so it just oozes out of you. It’s kind of how you’re.

Chris Goede:
It doesn’t make it right. I would go back to the statement of we need to make sure we do it right, not be right, but talk to us about these different types of approaches. To feedback and where that comes from and how we need to be aware of it.

Jeff Hancher:
Yeah, we all fall in one of those camps, and it doesn’t define us. No, but we all fall in one of those camps and you have. You have the assertive leader who loves a good cotton candy and pony ride party. You know, they love the ice cream socials on Friday. They’re writing, you know, their sheet cake for every birthday. But they’re also the leader that when somebody quits, they say, after all I’ve done, I can’t believe. You know, passive leaders are liked but not respected. And if you’re listening, you know who you are, because this also bleeds into your personal life, right? Then you have the aggressive leader who they lead with the stick.

Jeff Hancher:
And the real concern out of all of the leadership styles is aggressive, because you can win being aggressive. Sure, if you hurt people and not they’ll fall in line. But here’s my challenge to that leader is even if you’re doing well, how much better could you be doing? Aggressive drives compliance, not engagement. Engagement is heart and mind compliance. I saw a cartoon recently where the boss was standing over the employee, and the boss is saying to the employee, why aren’t you working? And the employee’s looking up and says, because I didn’t see you coming. Right. You know, that’s the aggressive leader. Like, we need engagement.

Jeff Hancher:
But then there’s this assertive leader who just sees things as information. I’m not hot, I’m not cold. I don’t look at feedback as good or bad. It’s just information. I’ve earned the right to deliver it, so I will. You know, it’s like a speed limit sign is how I would say it, Chris and Perry, is if we. If we went out right now and was speeding, and when we got pulled over and got a ticket. Now imagine a world with no speed limit signs and we get a speeding ticket.

Jeff Hancher:
We’d start asking questions like, well, what is the speed limit? And they’re like, that’s not my problem. Figure it out. We would feel like manipulated. Adversely, that’s the aggressive leader. Adversely, the passive leader. They’ll put up all kind of speed limit signs, but never hand out a ticket to anybody. You might as well just take them down because nobody’s taking them seriously. Assertive is the speed limit’s 55.

Jeff Hancher:
You were going 70, and as a result, there’s a ticket. But let me tell you why this sign exists and why it’s good for you. But I can’t shy away from the accountability. And so you have to know who you are, what are your tendencies? And if I’m passive, how do I pull to the middle? If I’m aggressive, how do I pull to the middle? And passive aggressive. Not always, but a lot of times it’s masked in insecurity. Passive aggressive could look like this. Now that Perry has arrived, we can go ahead and start the meeting. That’s passive aggressive.

Jeff Hancher:
You know, I can pick on Chris.

Chris Goede:
Or I said, perry going to show up today? Because Perry doesn’t like meetings, but let’s go ahead and get started.

Jeff Hancher:
Exactly. Yes. You know, so there’s, there’s all of those things, and we talk about how to address those with accountability. In the book, we talk about two forms, one of them you all have heard of, which is situation, behavior, impact, intent. But then there’s five words that I have customized for these one, off accountability conversations. But the key is assertiveness means accountability. But accountability without earning the right makes you aggressive. It makes you aggressive.

Jeff Hancher:
If you earn the right and you’re not holding people accountable, you’re passive. The sweet spot is earning the right and following through, because that’s what shapes people’s lives.

Chris Goede:
It aligns so well with the five levels of methodology that John developed so many years ago. I mean, you think about everything you’re talking about as a leader, and you’re talking about moving from two to three, and we’ll say often or we’ll see in organizations where a huge turnover problem is in the area where a leader went straight from one to three.

Jeff Hancher:
Yep.

Chris Goede:
And so, by the way, not only do they do that with their influence or they’re leading, they do it with feedback, they do it with communication. Like all of the leadership competencies that they lead with.

Jeff Hancher:
That’s right.

Chris Goede:
Are part of that journey. And this is a very specific example of what that looks like in the feedback loop at level one, level two, level three, level four.

Jeff Hancher:
Yeah. And you. It’s talked about in, in the five levels of. You never lose sight of level two.

Chris Goede:
You can’t.

Jeff Hancher:
You can’t lose sight even when you’re.

Chris Goede:
You never leave it behind.

Perry Holley:
Let me ask you this. The same with that thought. So some people, personality and temperament, he and I are really good at level two. We’re like Navy seals at level two. We like people. We mix it up great with people. I’ll speak for me. I have.

Perry Holley:
I struggle with level three, doing the hard part of leadership with the driving results. But some of us are really good at level three, and they’re not so good at level two. My people, where we’re good at level two, we kind of camp out at level two. We struggle with level three. The other side, the task, production based people, they, they kind of skip level two because they’re really good at driving the business. You mentioned in the book about how people give feedback. I’m thinking, me, I’m a little more encouraging feedback. The Level 3 specialist may be a little more aggressive feedback.

Perry Holley:
I may be a more passive feedback. But I’m thinking about you talking about keeping accounts even. I think one of your leaders had moved coins from one pocket to another about keeping these relationship accounts like a bank, withdrawals and deposits.

Jeff Hancher:
Yeah.

Perry Holley:
Talk more about that because I’m thinking some of us are really good at level two and three, but we’ve got to balance both. We have to be 2 and 3. We can’t camp out or skip to do that. I think this bank account idea.

Jeff Hancher:
Yeah, yeah. I learned the hard way, you know, we become a product of one. How we were raised to the leaders that we’ve been around and what we’ve seen, modeled. You can see people win that aren’t great leaders. And when I had my first crack at leadership, I modeled that style, which was a very aggressive style. Now, former athlete, former, you know, army soldier, take the hill. Like, you know, let’s go. And if this isn’t for you, then have a good life.

Jeff Hancher:
And I literally was just hitting people, like whipping them go faster. Hey, great news. This led to a sales manager of the region award. Look at me now. This is great. This is good. I got a trophy, I’m making good money, and I get my annual performance review. And out of a score of a two, I got a two.

Jeff Hancher:
Needs improvement in employee engagement. Me, Jeff Hancher, a two. I never had a two before in my life.

Chris Goede:
And we just produced and I mean.

Jeff Hancher:
You saw the trophy, like, what’s this about?

Chris Goede:
I still have it on my shelf if you want to come.

Jeff Hancher:
Oh, yeah. And I’m seeing this too, and I’m ready to throw up on the table. And my boss at the time says, I know this is going to be a hard one for you to hear, but I’m not here to celebrate the trophy. We did that at the annual meeting. I’m here to talk about where I think you can get better. Loved your results. I got bad news. They’re not sustainable.

Jeff Hancher:
He said, we’re in the people business. And he said, jeff, your turnover was over 40%.

Chris Goede:
Wow.

Jeff Hancher:
And that’s not sustainable. And he said, you’re Killing people. I think you’re a good person, but how your approach isn’t good. And he said, the key here is that you have to make bigger deposits into your people. Relational. He pulled three 50 cent pieces out of his pocket and threw them on the table. And he said, this is a job requirement. He said, I want those to be on your nightstand when you wake up.

Jeff Hancher:
I want you to put them in your left pocket. Your workday is not allowed to end until all three get in your right pocket. And here’s how you transfer them. Find somebody doing something amazing. He said, this is 15 deposits a week. He said, not only are you going to have great results, but you’re going to become a leader. People don’t want to let down. And you will earn the right to say anything that needs to be said.

Chris Goede:
That’s good.

Perry Holley:
Yeah.

Chris Goede:
Love that.

Jeff Hancher:
And it’s transformed. It was never a hard issue.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Jeff Hancher:
Like, I truly love people.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Jeff Hancher:
But I just wanted to win so bad and get the results. And battling through a poverty mentality and thinking I was doing it right. Because that’s what was modeled. Leader. If you’re listening and you are that aggressive leader, I’m here to tell you, don’t let your results fool you because you have a lot of Runway and leadership capacity left in you.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. You just didn’t. You didn’t know what you didn’t know.

Jeff Hancher:
Oh, man.

Chris Goede:
And the feedback. And a great little illustration every single day moving those three coins.

Jeff Hancher:
I needed it.

Chris Goede:
Gained knowledge. Right. Like you may have. I love the fact that knowledge doesn’t always equal understanding.

Perry Holley:
Right.

Jeff Hancher:
Right.

Chris Goede:
It’s wisdom and it’s doing it that gives you the true understanding. And your leader saw that and you just didn’t know. And a lot of leaders don’t know. They don’t just don’t know what they don’t know when it comes to the. The power of giving feedback the right way and setting it up so that they receive feedback the right way.

Jeff Hancher:
That’s so good. I didn’t want to be fluffy and soft. Who wants that brand? Right. I went the whole other way.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. The other way.

Perry Holley:
Yes, sir.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Jeff Hancher:
Give me 10 push ups.

Chris Goede:
How many cold calls you make today? All right, here you go. So let’s talk about improving the skill of feedback. We wanted this episode again. This is the second one with Jeff. And listen, this one’s just as good as the first one. I want to encourage you. Go listen to that one. But we want to talk about this.

Chris Goede:
And one of the things in the book you mentioned is to cultivate personal reflective practices. Tell us more about that and the power of that in. In regards to feedback.

Jeff Hancher:
Yeah, the, the first, the first step is to consume the right knowledge which is anybody listening is. That’s why they’re listening to this amazing show. Consume the right knowledge. But having head knowledge doesn’t always equal execution. And look, get good people around you. That will help you with your blind spots. But I will tell you the power of self reflection. We’re going to have countless leadership moments throughout our 10 year leadership conversations.

Jeff Hancher:
Some are going to be good, some aren’t. We can’t always control the outcome, but we can always control how we deliver. But I love a good reflection practice at least once a day. I think a good end of day practice is to always reflect back and be brutally honest with yourself of if something didn’t go the way it needed to. This is the big difference between fault and responsibility. You can be void of fault but still need to be responsible as a leader. Meaning what could we have done better to get a better outcome? Now if something goes poorly and you can reflect in the moment, you should. But this has to be a very vulnerable place to where you have this belief system that is that of positive discontent.

Jeff Hancher:
Meaning I have not arrived and I’m not as good of a leader as I could be. And when we have that belief system we can look in the mirror and say these are the areas today that I needed to get better. I read the book Firm Feedback. Jeff talked about collaborative feedback. He talked about direct feedback. I can’t believe I gave a 20 year employee with 18 presidents clubs direct feedback. They earned the right to have supportive and collaborative feedback. No wonder they got mad at me.

Chris Goede:
If you have again haven’t listened to the first podcast, I want to encourage you. He dropped some gold right out of the beginning for us talking about his journaling practice. That was a succession 20 year journey. Right? I know 10 years specifically on that. But that was part of his reflection and what it led to. And I want to encourage you, you’re going to want to hear that story. Make sure you go back and listen to the first episode because it aligns directly with what he’s saying that as leaders we should be doing on a daily basis.

Perry Holley:
And it’s really key. We teach a lot about self reflection. There’s a real self awareness builder that is making you aware that like you said, I’m not as good as I think I might be. I had some challenges today and there’s how I can overcome those. This next one you talk about. I kind of almost skimmed it because it sounds so easy. If you want to be better at giving feedback, start asking for feedback. Why would that help me?

Jeff Hancher:
Yeah, well, we’re here to model, right? You know this. Do as I say, not as I do. It just doesn’t fly. You know, this isn’t our great grandfather’s workplace anymore. So I think when we model this, what we’re telling our culture is, is that feedback is valued.

Perry Holley:
So by you, the leader, asking for feedback about you.

Jeff Hancher:
Absolutely.

Perry Holley:
You’re setting a culture statement.

Jeff Hancher:
Yes. And what you’re saying is there’s nothing more, a stronger display of humility than, I really need your advice on something. I really could use your help. Now, I will tell you this. Everybody can spot a fake a mile away. We don’t do this to check a box because you learned it on this podcast. We do this because we genuinely want to get better. And we believe that the people that are around us on our team, even the people that we’re leading, have something to offer.

Jeff Hancher:
You know, Mark Cole talks about reverse mentoring a lot, and I think this is what we’re talking about here. And we have to tee this up in these conversations where we tell people, you know, Perry, thanks for your time today. I know we talked a lot about updating your smart goals, but I want to let you know this is a two way street, man. I’ve learned so much from you over the years, and I want you to know I have a lot of blind spots. I want to be the best leader that I can. If I have a blind spot, can I count on you to tell me? Of course, boss. What would be the one you’re thinking about now? Now, here’s the. Here’s the.

Jeff Hancher:
What’s they.

Chris Goede:
Just one?

Jeff Hancher:
Yeah. They’re like, man, we don’t have enough time for that.

Chris Goede:
That’s right.

Jeff Hancher:
There’s five authority types I teach, but one of those is reward authority. This is the chasm we have to cross. When you have reward authority, I control your pay, I control if you get promoted. I control all of those things. So when I ask you tell me why I suck you, boss, you’re the greatest thing ever. They’re saying that because you have reward authority, that’s why you have to build trust. Because the best authority type is reverent authority. And when you have reverent authority, they genuinely see it and they know that it’s safe.

Jeff Hancher:
Now, they’ve seen you model this out to them, and so now you have earned the right to get the feedback Coming. The key when you get feedback as a leader is full composure. We see feedback as a gift, not as. That’s not true. That’s not right. You’re missing it. No, we say thank you for that feedback. That’s probably an area that I need to look at, whatever that might look like.

Jeff Hancher:
What we don’t want to do is get defensive, fully composed at all times. Navy Seals, to your point, like, if they can get a 16th of a second off of their Mao run, they’re here for it. Matter of fact, Navy Seals, if they’re not getting feedback, they go look for it. We have to have that mentality as leaders. We have to build that culture in our team. Not only does it make us better, but it’s helping us build a healthy culture of feedback.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, I love that. All right, so you just dropped a little bit of a hint right there about this. The last chapter in your book and the title of it and the gift it is. Right. And one of the things is that that is a gift to others that we need to make sure that we dial into. I want you to kind of wrap up your thoughts on that chapter, why that’s the last chapter, what that means to you, and then just an encouraging closing word for those leaders that are listening, that are watching around the world, that are working with their teams, that know they may do it all the time, and they know they need to get better. Maybe they don’t do it, and they need to know how to do it.

Chris Goede:
Leave them with just an encouraging word of why they should. Why they should order and pick up this book.

Jeff Hancher:
Yeah. First off, you guys are amazing, and thank you so much for this opportunity.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. Good fun.

Jeff Hancher:
I would say to the leader, there is. There’s a young Jeff Hancher waiting on you to step up and reach your fullest leadership potential. You know, one of my chores growing up was to cut. Cut squares off of metal coffee cans and pop. Rivet them to the floor of our car. We were poor, and we didn’t have a lot. And I think about whether it’s what we talked about in the last episode, the conversation that my sales manager had with me, but we don’t have enough time to go into the deposits that have been made in my life. I’m not who I am without great leaders.

Jeff Hancher:
And I would say this to the leader watching, whether you feel insecure in your leadership or maybe overconfident. What we know is your words carry a lot of weight. How you deliver those words can literally not only impact somebody’s life, but they can impact a life for generations to come. When you get the tools that you need to deliver the way that you need to, not only are your business results going to soar, but you’re going to have a lasting leadership impact. And I certainly would love an opportunity to be on that journey.

Chris Goede:
That’s awesome. We’re all in the people business, aren’t we? It doesn’t matter what the industry is. We’re in the people business.

Jeff Hancher:
Absolutely.

Chris Goede:
And I think we all would agree that leaders rank themselves a little bit better than they really are at a lot of things, specifically in the feedback area. And that’s why, I mean, Perry and I were super excited to have you on here because this not only is in direct alignment with our values and how we think and treat and lead people, it basically lays that out in a feedback manner that is going to help all of us. And so I do want to encourage you, as I mentioned at the top, that I would tell you where to be able to find this. The FirmFeedbackBook.com is where you can go there. And also there’s some free gifts, some free bonuses, if that’s, if, if you order it from there. Comes out June 17, but it is available right now for pre order. Maybe you’re, maybe you’re hearing this and, and maybe you’re thinking about your team. What I know is that all of us would agree that this feedback drives performance.

Chris Goede:
It drives engagement, it drives all kinds of things that you have to have as a leader. It drives trust. Even when you get hard feedback. If you’ve earned the right, I think it just catapults the trust that that individual has in you as a leader. And so I can’t recommend enough to go take a look at this book, maybe listen to this podcast a couple times, share it with your team. And I just want to encourage you that there is a lot of self reflection that has to happen in our leadership journey and this is one that we could all get better at. So Perry, why don’t you.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, it’s been a great pleasure. I really enjoyed the book and I’m looking forward to getting the hands of a lot of folks. It’s FirmFeedbackBook.com if you’d like that. You can also go to MaxwellLeadership.com/ExecutivePodcast if you’d like to know more information about the five levels of leadership, about our other podcast offerings, or if you’d like to leave us a comment or a question. We all love hearing from you. And so grateful you spend this time with us. That’s all today from the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast.

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