The Empathetically Driven Leader

Perry Holley:
Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. I am Perry Holley, a Maxwell Leadership facilitator and coach.

Chris Goede:
And I’m Chris Goede, executive vice president with Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining. Before we get started, I want to encourage you go to MaxwellLeadership.com/ExecutivePodcast and there you can learn more about our 360 degree leadership offering. We have Teaming for Success. We’re working on bringing out Valerie Burton’s new resilience training. We are serving the organizations right where they’re at and so if you’re interested, you can fill out a form. Our team would love to get in touch with you and tell you a little bit more about that. Well, today’s topic is this can be a little bit different.

Chris Goede:
Some, some wordsmithing here. And Perry is doing this to me on purpose because he’s been giving me some easier ones. Yes. Is the empathetically driven leader. Did I, did I say that right? Empathetic. I’m empathetically driven leader. So today we’re talking about really kind of a new phrase, a new kind of leader in the workplace that needs to show up, needs to be there. Most of us have probably felt it where the tension becomes caring for our people.

Chris Goede:
But yet knowing that we’ve got to level three, we’ve got to drive results, otherwise if we don’t, we don’t have a job. Right. So you gotta be able to balance that level two skill set and level three in the five levels of leadership. And that’s kind of the foundation of what we’re gonna talk about.

Perry Holley:
Well, we recently did an episode on burnout and the quiet cracking that we talked about. And we know that anxiety is at all time highs and a lot of our workers younger and older, it can be a lot of negativity on the team. You can like we’ve got remote work and there’s debates about that increased demand for speed to market and for servicing clients, shifting values sometimes about what’s important to our team. You know, there’s a lot going on and that your, your team, your people and you’re driven, you’re driving this at level three production that Chris was talking about. But the, it’s really a great time to be a little more empathetic to, toward folks. And the idea here is, can you do both? Can you be empathetically driven? And I got the idea this came from a research paper that just came out, the Leadership Skills 2025 report by Dr. Jack Zinger and Dr. Joe Folkman.

Perry Holley:
And they captured my attention when they said that leaders today are facing unprecedented challenges when it comes to these types of things. And I think that we’re seeing it real time with a lot of our clients, and I thought it’d be a great thing to talk about.

Chris Goede:
Well, just a list of. Of things that we’re facing. You just. I’m exhausted, but listening to the list you just talked about because, yeah, it sounds like it. We need to live out this title today, Perry. But all of that, I think leaders need to understand is the. Is driving the result of what we’re seeing. We’re seeing the burnout, right? We’re seeing where younger people are like, man, tell me how what I’m doing ties to a bigger purpose in life.

Chris Goede:
If not, I am out of here. And then you got people that are working different time zones. We have some on our team three, you know, three. Three hours away. We’re trying to figure all this out. And so as leaders, we’re getting to a place to where we’ve got to figure out how to do both of these. What I’m fascinated by, because you and I tie this to the language now, me more than you, obviously, you have a relationship, you know, with these guys and have spent some time with them. So some of the language is geared towards them.

Chris Goede:
But for me, I go right to level two and level three, and this next stat just blew me away because I thought, man, if that’s true, we got a lot of work to do out there. And so Zenger and Folkman report in there that only 15% of leaders can actually excel or are actually excelling at both the care and the actual drive, the empathy. And the drive for us would be level two and level three. But those that do and those that have figured it out, they are in the 91st percentile of being effective as a leader. And I’m like, oh, man, I want to be that. Like, I want to figure that out. How do I go about doing that?

Perry Holley:
Yes. It’s also interesting that they called out the. The high empathy leaders were show significantly higher engagement scores, which we’ve been talking about seems like forever.

Chris Goede:
Yes, forever. And it’s not moving, by the way. So obviously you and I aren’t doing a very good job about talking about. The numbers are actually going the other way. They’re going down.

Perry Holley:
I don’t take any responsibility.

Chris Goede:
It’s our podcast. It’s the Gallup’s gonna source our podcast.

Perry Holley:
Of the reason why. Attention to it. They’re just driving it through the floor.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Perry Holley:
Now that these high empathy leaders show significantly higher engagement scores, even if they have a high drive about them, it’s also interesting that teams that are led by high empathy leaders show significantly higher engagement scores. Even if their drive isn’t as high, the empathy is there. So empathy alone will move the needle is interesting to me. But when you combine empathy and drive, that’s when leadership becomes transformational. You can be a high empathy leader and people will feel good, but maybe you’re not driving the business the way, but you’d be high drive without empathy. And you maybe feel like you’re driving the business, but you’re losing the people. And we would, we would call this thinking about, you know, how that level balancing level two and level three you.

Chris Goede:
Mentioned earlier, it’s so good. I, when you think about it this way and you just made a comment about having high empathy, you know, moves the needle more than the other. But man, in relationships I’ve had with leaders in the past where they had both that empathy and the drive, it was like, let’s go like that. That’s some of my greatest times that I can remember, you know, as an individual contributor. The research also found something that initially was kind of fascinating, but when you think about this, it’s, it’s, it makes a lot of sense or it shows up in reality, I think with, with the work that we do. And you’re probably going to agree with this where they said individual contributors tend to score higher in empathy while the executives tend to excel at drive. And so you look at that and you go, hm, yeah, that does kind of make sense because as leaders climb higher, they’re often recognized and rewarded for more performance, more metrics, more numbers, not necessarily connecting with people. It’s about the financial reports.

Chris Goede:
Right. The earnings are out. What does that say? It doesn’t say the connections are out. Right. In the organization, the earnings are out. And so kind of makes sense on why that’s like that. But if we lose empathy at the top in our leadership, man, our organizations are going to pay for it, the efficiency of it. There’s going to be lack of trust.

Chris Goede:
There’s not going to be the engagement level again of what we’re talking about. And so it’s so critical to figure out how to balance both of these.

Perry Holley:
It’s interesting that we, we hear a lot about topic that, that we’ve talked, we’ve talked about A lot here, but it’s in the headlines about psychological safety and do the people on your team feel safe being themselves, telling you what they think, having a voice, disagreeing, those types of things? And they find that high empathy leaders, it builds psychological safety. It says that it’s okay to come to you, it’s okay to say things to you, it’s okay to be myself. I don’t have to fit in, I can belong. And this, it fuels this creativity and the learning in the high performance environment. So we really want to do this and I want to go through some practical and get us started here, but just reminding that Zinger and Folkman, when they do this, they take in this data from hundreds of thousands of 360 assessments and what leaders are telling them. And so I’ve gotten a lot of value from Jack and Joe and their, their research over the years. I really encourage any of you if you follow them or go and look at their research. Jack and Joe both have several books out that talk about leadership and trust and these types of things.

Perry Holley:
So I think these, these ideas that are going to come from them, I think they’re, they really have gotten my attention.

Chris Goede:
Love it. So let’s unpack five ways that they lay out practically that leaders can demonstrate empathy. Number one, it’s interesting, eliminate double standards. And so first of all, start at looking at your own leadership habits, right? Do you enjoy privileges? Do you maybe take advantage of certain things that maybe your team doesn’t and they’re, they’re aware of? It could look like flexible work hours. Hey, you require everybody to be in the office nine to five every day you’re showing up. Three, whatever that might look like, right? Maybe you take more time off or maybe it’s just having access to certain information. Now hear me say this. There are things that, you know, all leaders at times are going to have to have access to over the notice.

Chris Goede:
But these are things that are very apparent to the team that there’s a double standard between the life that you’re living in and the life that they are.

Perry Holley:
Well, it’s worth doing a little audit every now and then to see other special privileges that you might be receiving. Then ask yourself, does this serve the broader organization? You know, maybe a great question to reflect on would be how would your team describe the difference between their work experience and your work experience? And like you said, there’s definitely some lines there that, where you, you have to have some differences. But the experience that overall about coming to work should not be heavily slated toward you get all the good stuff and we get all the.

Chris Goede:
That’s right.

Perry Holley:
Second thing that Zinger and Fulton brought up was making. And we love this one. Make development a daily priority. That empathetic leaders don’t just correct mistakes. They correct. They coach people through them and help people to grow. So I think, you know, this really speaks to all about is that, are you doing the daily learning and do you have a growth plan? Do you have a learning plan? Are you doing something every day to get better at what you’re doing and that will help with this empathetically driven leader is that we’re all growing and getting better.

Chris Goede:
Ian, let me add on to that. Use things that maybe you have failed at some setbacks to learn from and then share what you’re learning. Man, listen, I did this the other day and made a big mistake. I just want to let you all know this is what I learned from what that looks like and then be able to share that across the team. And when you do that, that empathy and the drive for what we’re trying to accomplish is there. And so here’s a question for you was, when was the last time you took a maybe a team members, maybe yours, maybe the team as a whole mistake and turned it into a growth opportunity for the entire team versus using it as kind of a time to correct someone or correct the team or whatever that might be. So use that growth not only as Perry was talking about in regards to a positive growth mode, but then also in a way of learning from the mistakes that you and the team may be going through. That’s empathy in action, right? That’s turning error that may have happened into education.

Chris Goede:
Number three is master the art of inspiration. Empathy isn’t just about the comfort or, you know, consoling someone. It’s actually about the connection with them to the purpose, which leaders miss out on this of why they’re doing what they’re doing in order to. I mean, real quick, Perry and I talk about this periodically. 373 times. We haven’t missed a Thursday.

Perry Holley:
373.

Chris Goede:
Perry’s writing the content. We’re sitting in here, right. Wade’s in here with us. And so we’re producing this. And sometimes you got to retie the purpose. And we get it when we go out in the field, right? But sometimes we’re not on the field. And so how are we tying that then getting in here and doing this over and over? Tuesday is coming, and we’re doing this right to where Perry’s creating his content. Because the impact that it’s having on individuals and teams.

Chris Goede:
And we are about powerful, positive change. So, anyways, I’m just living this out in the moment because Perry and I sometimes have to go back to even some of our content and go, man, I need to be doing a better job of that. That’s just kind of an example of the power of being able to. To inspire each other about why you’re there.

Perry Holley:
That’s really great. We are driven every. To be here every week to do this. However, what’s the reason? What’s the purpose?

Chris Goede:
What is it?

Perry Holley:
And is it inspiring to say, yeah, we’re trying to make an impact on leaders who will multiply impact to others. And that. That’s our. Our purpose. And so, yeah, can I get up and do that?

Chris Goede:
I can.

Perry Holley:
This one did the master. The art of inspiration did catch me a little by surprise. I had to think about it. But, you know, as a driven leader, we set goals, we set expectations. We were accomplishing a lot. When you add empathy to all that and reframing those goals as maybe inspiring possibilities for the team, not just requirement to get the job done, but tying it to their purpose. And I think about a lot of our work with the generational leadership saying, a lot of the younger workers today are not driven like me, the older worker where I was about accomplishment and success and money and status.

Chris Goede:
And it’s different.

Perry Holley:
They like those things, but they really want to know why and what’s the purpose of that. They want to be inspired. And I think this idea that, you know, are. Are they bringing inspiring. Are the people in your team bringing inspiring ideas? Maybe the inspiration has died a bit. And we’re so driven. We’re all about the requirements, not about the possibilities. And I thought that’s what that got me for.

Perry Holley:
But number four, build bridges across differences, man. We’ve done a lot about talking about inclusion and allowing people. Are you. Are you comfortable with the differences in others? It’s easy to show empathy to people like you, but do you have empathy for those that are a bit different? Empathetic leaders invite voices that really challenge their own. This goes back to our inclusive leadership topics around belonging and that psychological safety and is it okay to be me in all my diverse differences from you? Can I be me and bring myself to you? Or do I need to line up and assimilate to be like you and just salute, stay mute and play the game and not bring my true to.

Chris Goede:
Reminds me of your story about a leader that you had that said, hey, Perry, if we both have the same. One of us is not needed here. Right. But it’s going to be you. That’s right. Yeah. So I love that. Are you opening and inviting, you know, contrasting viewpoints of when you’re considering doing something with the team or moving forward? And.

Chris Goede:
And then often, you know, you’re going to hear from a lot of voices on your team, and usually it’s the same ones you’re hearing from over and over and over again. So you’re taking time to hear from those that maybe aren’t speaking up and going in and picking their brain a little bit. Hey, what am I missing? Like, what do you think about this? What’s your perspective behind that? So I love that. Well, finally, number five is embrace the vulnerability of feedback. Do you share feedback? I was saying earlier, even just someone would make a mistake. You know, are you willing to be vulnerable and share that, but also, are you willing to share the feedback you receive? So, for example, for me, right, Mark Cole, our CEO, he’s my leader. So if Mark and I have a conversation, give me feedback. Am I willing to come to my team and say, man, listen, this is what I learned about myself this week, and here’s what Mark challenged me.

Chris Goede:
Are you willing to do that? Do you share your mistakes, your challenges, and where you need help? Vulnerability builds trust. You need to be able to do that as a leader.

Perry Holley:
Yeah. So some think vulnerability. If I ever ask them do a poll, people say, oh, it’s weakness. No. If you’ve seen it in a leader, it is 100% courage, and it is a trust builder. And you think, well, why does vulnerability enhance empathy? And I’ve heard John Maxwell say, if your people leave your presence going, so what? You’ve lost them. But if they leave your presence going, me too, you have them. And so when you’re vulnerable, you’re saying, I’m like you.

Perry Holley:
I also have struggles. I also make mistakes. I also need help. I also don’t have the answer all the time, just like you. And they think me too, they’re more bought into you. And that empathy, that empathetic vulnerability that’s in there says that, man, I’m like you. And it makes. It gives me.

Perry Holley:
It builds trust, it builds energy.

Chris Goede:
One of the greatest communication lessons that I got from John was we were getting ready to go and do this Navy SEAL training with one of these groups that we had. And let’s just put it this way, the room wasn’t at all ready for any type of Navy seal. Now, we were just doing the basics, but they didn’t know that. Right. So there was a lot of tension. But John pulls me aside. He says, let me. Let me tell.

Chris Goede:
You need to handle the situation. I was like, I’m ready, like. Because he goes, I need you to get up there. I need you to sit down and. And you just tell him, I. I don’t know if I can do this either. I’m actually a little bit anxious about this. And he goes, just watch what happens.

Chris Goede:
And I did this. And they just went, yeah, like, me too. And I’m like, so, guys, I promise you, like, if I can get through it, you know, view. And so that’s what you’re talking about, right there is like being able to do that. And so just remember this, right? The. You don’t. You can’t choose between both of these. We want you to be incredible level two and empathetic, and we want you to have great production at level three in the five levels of leadership.

Chris Goede:
And as Perry mentioned earlier, empathy without drive creates comfort without progress. But drive without empathy creates results without a relationship. And you can’t do that in the world of leadership. You can’t do that. You have to have both.

Perry Holley:
Reminds me of one of the 21 laws John calls the law of connection. I love this because it says that leaders must touch a heart before they ask for a hand. And some of us are really good at the drive that’s asking for the hand. Ask for the hand, ask for the hand. Not touching so much heart. And some of us are good at the empathy, which is touching the heart, touching the heart, touching the heart. Not so good at asking for the hand. You have to do both, but you need to do one first.

Perry Holley:
You need to touch the heart and then ask for the hand.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. And we use this phrase. Susan Davis brought it to our attention, and now you see it more and more out there is. It’s an essential skill, not a soft skill. Right. It’s essential that you understand this empathy part. It’s not soft. And making a leader doesn’t make you soft.

Chris Goede:
Right. It’s an essential part of what you’re doing. And if you can do that and you can see others clearly and you can lead alongside them, you will be able to set the direction. And then you’ll have people that are connected to you, and together you guys will be able to accomplish a ton of stuff, more than you could by yourself or more than they could by themselves. And so it comes back to the. The two phrases for me in the five levels at levels two and three are people following you because they want to, or are they following you because they have to? And if you get to that point and you understand that you got to have the want to, the production is going to come and it’s going to last a lot longer than the have to.

Perry Holley:
Fantastic. Well, great stuff, Chris. Thank you. And reminder, if you’d like to get the learner guide for this episode, or if you would like to learn more about our offerings, other podcast offerings, you can do all that at MaxwellLeadership.com/ExecutivePodcast. You can also leave us a comment or a question there. We love hearing from you and we’re so grateful you’d spend this time with us today. That’s all from the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast.s leaders, sometimes we don’t understand the reality of really what the engagement level is on our team. Some of our teams are great actors, some aren’t. Well, we’re going to talk a little bit more about that today. Before we do, I want to encourage you go to MaxwellLeadership.com/ExecutivePodcast and you can download the learner guide of this episode or leave us a question or a comment.

Chris Goede:
You can also look at the weekly blog that’s tied to this content and you can dive into some more of application pieces. Well, today’s topic, as I mentioned, is using feedback to actually rekindle engagement of your team. So this is something that every leader is wrestling right now with is how do I get, as Perry likes to say, more people rowing in the front of the boat and not poking holes in the back of the boat? Right.

Perry Holley:
Drills.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, we don’t need any drills. We want them rowing in the same direction. And, and it may not be a mystery to you that you’re. Some of your team is, is disengaged. And that may be telling you something about either your leadership or their involvement. But we’ve got to get to the bottom of this. And so how do we go about using some feedback the right way, the right to drive additional engagement?

Perry Holley:
Yeah. You know, I heard our friend Jeff Hancher say that engagement doesn’t die in a day. And then I added it dies day by day.

Chris Goede:
It does, it does.

Perry Holley:
And I thought, wow, it erodes slowly over time. People don’t just automatically just set up. I’m, I’m not plugging in today. I’m gonna quite quit or whatever. But when feedback is skipped or softened or silenced, people, they don’t know how they’re doing. I think it’s when I heard him say that, I go, man, I, I’m gonna go with this. And, you know, we’re working with Jeff on some stuff. But I think we how feedback, the right kind of feedback can really get that engagement kick started for your organization.

Chris Goede:
Yep. We are in the very near future we’re going to be talking about this partnership with Jeff and this feedback content because it is something that every leader, every organization, they talk about it when it comes to communication. And we had some great content around there, some good deliverables. This is going to be amazing. And so our team went through it. Perry has sat in under an entire workshop and so man, we know, that’s why we’re talking about it. We know that feedback is something that you guys desire and we’re super excited about bringing that to you. So stay tuned for more on that to come.

Chris Goede:
We used to talk about and it’s so funny when I say used to this quiet quitting thing because I think it, it feels like it just happened right. And there always, there’s always something new that’s coming out. And a lot of people kind of associate that with the Gen Z. I just got labeled with it that they were quite quitting as kind of a trend. But it’s really not just that. It’s actually all of us. And what ends up happening is it begins to happen when feedback from your leader disappears. And so you know when as a leader you provide a lot of direction, tasks are being done, but you don’t provide any type of feedback appreciation, people can just start checking out.

Chris Goede:
It’s like, do they even notice what’s going on? And so they begin to then not bring their A game. They go, oh well I could bring my C plus game and stay here and still get a paycheck until they begin to be disengaged. And that’s how it all starts. And so if you’re not hearing from your team, if they’re not giving you feedback by the way, then don’t assume that things are fine. It actually is probably a situation where maybe they don’t even feel safe speaking up or because you don’t recognize or give any type of feedback, they may not even feel like it’s worth it. And so they just stay quiet.

Perry Holley:
I’ve heard John say that leaders who don’t listen will eventually be surrounded by people, people who have nothing to say. And I think it’s not because they’re lazy. They are. They’re trying to lead themselves as best they can in the environment where they’re not really sure how they’re doing. And if I had to tell you one thing, I hear more than anything in individual Coaching, especially individual contributor groups that we do is when I say, what are you. How you doing? What do you need? It is, I have no idea how I’m doing. Just had a senior leader at an organization where we work say, actually, you. You assigned him to me because he said, I’m not getting any feedback.

Perry Holley:
Can you help him get some feedback? So we, you know, started on a journey about how can we get his senior team to let him know how he’s doing? Because he is. He’s kind of spinning his. His wheels. He doesn’t know how he’s doing, so he’s not really sure what direction to go.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Perry Holley:
And I thought, man, that is a crying shame, because one of the easiest things to do is to let people know, what do you see and what are you sensing? And there’s definitely some positive aspects of that, but there’s also some constructive. So I think it’s a really great topic.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. And this is a leadership problem. It’s not. Not a people problem. It’s. As leaders, we need to step up and understand the power of feedback. And. And we need to let them know, like, to Perry’s point, like, how are they doing? Are they going in the right direction? Are they doing the right things? One of the things that I did periodically was, hey, come in.

Chris Goede:
Let’s talk about your top three priorities. Not because it was about feedback, but, like, they just. We needed to make sure that I heard from them and I was redirecting them. They were redirecting me. Like, having this conversation in this feedback loop will 100% drive engagement, because you won’t get engagement from your team. Imagine the individual just talking about. Imagine if on a continual basis, they were getting both constructive and positive feedback. Imagine the production that would be happening there.

Chris Goede:
And that leader, you know, produces pretty heavily as it is. And so. And we’re not talking about. When we talk about this feedback, we’re not talking about your annual reviews. I was on the phone yesterday with somebody in the HR world, and I was like, yeah, don’t. I’m not. Don’t talk to me about annual reviews. That’s the only time you’re having conversations.

Chris Goede:
Like, that is not the way to go about it. And so you can’t just get to the end of the year and say, hey, good job doing this. And, oh, by the way, back in the first quarter when you said, you know, or you got to have continual feedback and talking about it on a timely basis. The other thing is you hear the airplane example where if someone took off from la, California and coming to Atlanta and, and they’re off just a little bit. Well, if you don’t have a conversation or feedback by the time they get to the east coast, they’re up in Boston, right. And when they left they didn’t think they were that far off. And so by doing this man, you’re going to create engagement, clarity, connection and your team members are going to soar.

Perry Holley:
Self correcting on that. Well, feedback to me says that I see you and you’re making a difference. What you do matters, you’re relevant here. When feedback disappears, people begin maybe to stop believing that they matter, that their role is relevant, that what they do matters. And then when that goes away, then engagement pulls back and it kind of dies with it. I wanted to bring up a tool, Jeff Hancher, by the way, his book is Firm Feedback in a Fragile World. If you want to pick that up, it’s fantastic. But Jeff suggests that you do the feedback temperature check.

Perry Holley:
So picture a thermometer there. You’re going to do a temperature check on your feedback. He says these three indicators are a great way to, to spot and stop disengagement before it starts. So why don’t you start us off with this. What do we need to do first with this temperature check?

Chris Goede:
Indicator number one I talked about in the intro about what are you getting from your team in meetings or one on one. And indicator number one is silence. Are your meetings quiet? How many people are speaking up? Are they sharing ideas, are they pushing back? Because if not, then they just think, well what I think doesn’t matter and they’re going to do whatever. And so they just, they just stay silent. And so that’s the first indicator is silence.

Perry Holley:
Number two was, see Jeff called it the surface compliance that tasks may be getting done but there’s no heart, no creativity, no spark. I call this the salute and stay mute. They just, they do what they’re supposed to do. There could be a sign that they’re just in survival mode. They’re just getting from day to day and you don’t have really any engagement with that.

Chris Goede:
The third indicator is withdrawal. Now this could be almost a sister or brother of silence. This is actually a little bit deeper where they’re just there. And not only are they being silent, but you can just tell they’re not present, like they’re thinking about something else. They’re on their phone, they’re checking other, they are not bringing anything, objections or ideas to the table. And you can see a lot of it in their body language.

Perry Holley:
So let’s get practical as we like to do. And obviously the best practice in this is to provide ongoing feedback on a regular basis coaching every member of your team and not at the annual review, but on a regular basis with that. But if you take this temperature check, feedback, temperature check with your team and you notice you may have some disengage. You know, what are some things that you can do. And one simple yet direct approach to this is to check with every person on the team that you’re concerned by just maybe simply asking. I’ve noticed you’ve been a little quieter lately. Or whatever you’re noticing about them. Maybe they, they used to bring you ideas.

Perry Holley:
Now they don’t. Checking in with them. How are, how are you doing? How has your work been lately? What are you, what are there any obstacles with your work? Are there challenges you’re facing in your work? The key here is not to defend. Don’t jump in. Just listen. Hear them. I heard Greg Groeschel say once, you know what, what, what’s happening that’s frustrating you. He said it’s so when they tell you something to start.

Perry Holley:
Oh yeah, let me tell you about. No, don’t, don’t defend it. Listen to it. Let them be heard and then real take it. Is that they’re giving you feedback now. Is it valuable at all to do that?

Chris Goede:
I feel like that was a personal comment towards me and Sarah called trying.

Perry Holley:
Not to look at you when I said it.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, I was just thinking about conversations where I immediately, you know, want to justify what I did right away. Right. Like that’s my natural reaction. Craig, you’re Rochelle was talking about there. So hey, I’d also think about and revisit your, your one on one strategy. Now I just said that and some of you go, well what’s a one on one?

Perry Holley:
Don’t, don’t do that.

Chris Goede:
That might be a problem too. Meaning we got to start meeting with our team now. There’s certain number of direct reports we would love for you not to go over but you got to have one on one meetings with them. And so what are you using them for now? I’ll just give you an example. For me it’s, that’s their time to bring the agenda to me and they’re. But I never miss the opportunity in there to check in on them. To your point. And so what is your strategy behind your one on ones? Are you getting to a place to where not only are you getting some things done, but you’re also able to check on their quote Unquote, you know, emotional level.

Chris Goede:
How are they feeling about work? Perry gave you some great questions. What’s frustrating you? What does that look like? But also take that opportunity to say, hey, what’s it look like to be on the other side of my leadership? We ask this question at times and people go, oh, I don’t know if I want to ask that. But it’s allowing them to give you feedback about you that you probably need to hear and you can grow from, by the way. Once you do that and you model it, then they feel even more comfortable with you giving them feedback.

Perry Holley:
Right. What is the I love this about the one on one. If I had to say one thing that more light bulbs come on on coaching calls is when I ask that question. Tell me about how you structure your one on one. Well, I really don’t have time for one on one, so I really don’t do one on ones. I thought if I had the one thing that changed my leadership journey was somebody telling me you need to have a regular. It may not be every week, maybe once a month if you have too big a team, but whatever it is, people need to know they have a spot of quality time one on one with you. And a wise person once told me, you, the leader, are not allowed to cancel.

Perry Holley:
You’re only allowed to reschedule. They, the individual contributor can cancel. If they say I don’t have anything, boss, I don’t, they can cancel. But you cancel more than once, it sends a message that it’s really not that important to you. And you and I do this all the time. You will never cancel. But you’ll we often reschedule. We often reschedule because of our schedules to do that.

Perry Holley:
But I think about you one on one when it comes to feedback. I like I did hear from Rochelle about asking pointed questions about how are things? How are you doing? What do you need from me? Am I frustrating you? Is the work frustrate trying to get them talking about that? But do you actually use one on ones to give feedback or are you seeking feedback mostly in your one on ones?

Chris Goede:
I am probably giving feedback more than seeking and I’m doing it through their agenda. So I love for them to bring the agenda. Here’s an update, here’s on challenge, here’s an opportunity, this and that. Listen to them and say, hey, let me Can I give you a different perspective on that? Or hey, here’s another thought or an idea or you and I just recently had this conversation. Well, let me tell you the context that’s way behind a lot of this stuff. That could make some examples here. Right. So like trying to, to work it into the agenda.

Chris Goede:
Not that I’m looking to give feedback at every comment, but I’m looking for opportunities to help create clarity so that there’s lack of frustration, so that there’s more engagement level no matter what it is. And I don’t ask about feedback as often in my one on ones but periodically I do.

Perry Holley:
That’s good. That’s really a good example because what you listeners don’t know is that I was, I said I’m going to do X and you heard that. And you know that probably wasn’t the exact right thing to do, but you said let me give you some further context about the bigger picture, some things you may not be aware of. And then you filled in some of the color commentary and I went, oh wow, that’s now tell me this and that. Then we’re able to formulate a better path forward. But you had to have the courage to step up and say hey Perry, that’s while that might be okay, that’s not really what we’re trying to do. And so you gave me the feedback by giving me a bigger picture view and it, it and changed a lot.

Chris Goede:
Back to what we’ve talked about previous feedback. Like I was doing that for the best interest of you even though it’s like I don’t necessarily. I could have let you do that.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, yeah.

Chris Goede:
But you were about to exhaust a lot of energy because I know you and over deliver on certain things and with some additional context I was protecting you but still had to hey, say hey, there’s more there. Can I speak into this really quick kind of thing? So having the courage to do that because it was going to benefit the team member versus let me tell you what I know. Right. Like that was not the posture of it at all.

Perry Holley:
Another challenge with this feedback and a real practical thing you need to know is that I heard Jeff Hancher say this, that if you feel like giving feedback is really risky, Jeff said you’re doing it right and that you should keep going. It means you’re getting close to what really matters with your people. Don’t wait for disengagement to happen before you start to speak up. Reach out, check in with people. These one on ones is a great idea. Have this conversation, find out where there’s concern, find out where people have questions, find out how people are executing, get information from others, be able to give people some indicator about how they’re doing and maybe a constructive idea or two to go forward. I will tell you, it’s hard sometimes to give constructive feedback because it feels a little risky. It’s also hard on the hearing side to hear it.

Perry Holley:
And I’ve done a couple of examples in workshops where I’ve asked the group watching me for three hours. I said, I’m going to step out and get a coffee I’d like for you to give me. And I put my name on a flip chart, draw a line, says, positive, constructive, go. And they have little sticky notes. It’s anonymous. I said, I want you. I’m gonna get a coffee. Go.

Perry Holley:
Stickier, sticky up there. And I looked at their faces, and it looked like I’d asked them to take off their clothes and stand on the table. They were, like, mortified. I thought, seriously, I’m asking for your feedback. Help me be a better facilitator.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Perry Holley:
But when I came back, I noticed also on the other side of that, when I went to read on the board, a little glitch in me and wait a minute, I asked for it, Right? And now I’m. What? And now I’m feeling upset about it or I’m feeling uneasy about it.

Chris Goede:
Right. So pride, ego. Yeah, all of that.

Perry Holley:
I think it’s just. We just admitted it feels bad giving it, it feels bad receiving it, but the outcome is so worth it if. And especially if you earn the right. Is another thing we talk about is that, do you have the relate. Have you done the level two? Do you have the relationship? Can you speak into people’s lives and they know that it’s coming from a good place? And those three questions we talked about in the last podcast, do they know you’re trying to help them? Do they know that you care about them? Do they know that they can trust you? Well, then unload, Unload. I want to know, because I know you care about me.

Chris Goede:
So I think that’s so interesting because I had not heard you make that example before, nor was I in the room, which is probably. This is. That was probably designed. He didn’t want me in the room when he asked that question.

Perry Holley:
But the one that flipped.

Chris Goede:
That’s right. On the positive side. But what I love about that is think about that, right? The credibility as a. A leader. You were leading the room. You’re facilitating the credibility is like. Like I’m going first. Yeah, right.

Chris Goede:
The other thing, too, is, is that I think with this. Is that you mentioned this previously. Your other people on the team are watching what’s going on. They know what’s going on. And as a leader, you’re willing to accept that. So you’re sitting in this room, just as an example, and let’s just say you don’t do this. Let’s say you’re chewing bubble gum and you keep blowing bubbles, right? Like, everybody’s in the room’s like, man, does he. Does he not know? Right? And so then you go out, they put, quit blowing bubbles.

Chris Goede:
Oh, okay. And you stop. You know what I’m saying? Like, everybody is aware of it. And so your credibility as a facilitator, or even in this example, a different example, as a leader, it continues to get undermined until you’re willing to accept that, even though it’s hard. So as we wrap up, man, this is just a great conversation. Conversation leaders need to be having with their people. 80% say that they would be more engaged if they had feedback on a weekly basis. Specific feedback, just positive, constructive, whatever it might be.

Chris Goede:
But fewer than one out of five are actually getting it in corporate America. So we got to be a different leader than most are out there. And Perry, through a couple of his examples, gave you great questions. Maybe you’re like, how do I even start the conversation? Go back, listen to this podcast again, and get to a point to where you’re just comfortable just asking a couple questions that go, well, hey, what’s it look like to be on the other side of my leadership in that particular situation? And, you know, I think one of the things we got to make sure that we understand is that by doing this as leaders, it may be hard, but your engagement level of your team will not increase unless you’re having these conversations. So then you begin to look at the. The ROI of your leadership, which is your return on investing in people. What is that? Well, if you’re having feedback, it’s going to escalate, but if it’s not, it’s probably just going to stay the same. So have the courage.

Chris Goede:
As Perry said, it’s uncomfortable on one side, it’s uncomfortable on the other side. Everybody’s uncomfortable. But I love even just thinking about, how do I approach it? What’s the common language I do? I start with every time they know where my heart is, they know that I care and trust and then be able to deliver that.

Perry Holley:
Terrific. Well, if you want to get the learner guide for this episode or learn about our offerings or other podcast offerings, you can do that at MaxwellLeadership.com/ExecutivePodcast. You can also leave us a comment or a question there. We love hearing from you, and we’re very grateful you spend this time with us. That’s all today from the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast.

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