In this episode, Perry Holley and Chris Goede address the common assumption that only extroverts can be effective leaders. They highlight the unique strengths and abilities that introverted leaders bring to the table, such as their ability to steady a room, think deeply, and listen closely. They also discuss how introverted leaders excel in one-on-one situations, providing motivation through empathy and supporting people with intention and care. Additionally, they explore how the 5 Levels of Leadership model applies to both introverted and extroverted leaders, emphasizing that leadership is about influence, regardless of personality type.
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Perry Holley:
Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast, where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others, and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. Hi, I’m Perry Holley, a Maxwell Leadership facilitator and coach.
Chris Goede:
And I’m Chris Goede, executive vice president with Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining. Well, today we’re going to tackle an old assumption about leadership and I’ll let you know what that is in just a minute. If you’re interested in learning more about some of our consulting services, some of our coaching or training, I want to encourage you to go to MaxwellLeadership.com/ExecutivePodcast. Would love to hear from you there. If you fill out the form, the team will follow back up with you. Well, here’s what we’re going to talk about. Can an introvert be a leader? And I think for a long time the whole.
Chris Goede:
We’re just going to sit here. No, we’re going to talk about this because a lot of people are like, well, you know, leadership is loud and boisterous and they come that open doors, right? But man, in all the work that we’ve done, some of the greatest leaders that we’ve had the privilege to work with and serve have been at the core of who they are introverts. So absolutely, yes, this can be the case. And so not only can introverts lead, but oftentimes they’re better leaders than those that are not very. So let’s dive into this. And we’re hearing this often. We, you know, we get it where some of our coaching calls people are like, I mean, I don’t have that type of personality and so it doesn’t matter. But talk to some.
Perry Holley:
That’s where it came from. I had talking about kind of level four. We would talk in the five levels of leadership about developing others. I was asking a leader about his leadership pipeline and who’s his next generation of leader and he says, well, I got a couple, but man, they’re both of them are so quiet. They’re so introverted. They just, they don’t speak up. They’re just not that, that loud. And I, I’m not sure they could lead a team.
Perry Holley:
Oh, my friend, yes, they can lead a team. There’s leadership comes from all personalities and temperaments because leadership’s about influence. Can’t do they have influence? Oh, yeah. Well, let us talk about how we can develop them. I was then reading was on LinkedIn and saw a post Kavit Hariya Posted a topic about this and I used a term that I really like. You said that leadership often has a volume bias and you were just, you just mentioned that.
Chris Goede:
Yeah.
Perry Holley:
Meaning that we reward the loudest voice in the room. Not necessarily the clearest voice and not necessarily the most thoughtful voice, but the loudest voice. So I thought that can really be true, that we might miss some of our better leaders by the ones that are more thoughtful and quiet.
Chris Goede:
Yeah. The article that you’re talking about called it charisma over calm mindset. Right.
Perry Holley:
Yeah, I love that.
Chris Goede:
And we talked when I kicked it off, saying, hey, there’s this old assumption and, and we have been kind of sold at times that there’s this narrow image of, of leadership, someone that’s, that’s bold, that has the volume bias that you were talking about that we have around it and they’re always out in front and they bring a lot of great things, by the way. So what you’re going to hear us saying, if you know anything about us and years of podcast, you’re going to become the best leader possible. Right. Where you’re at. Right. But, but even extroverts, they bring a lot of energy, they bring a lot of spontaneity, they bring a lot of passion. And we know a lot about them because they all want us to know a lot about them. Right.
Chris Goede:
And. And so we don’t know a whole lot about the.
Perry Holley:
You and I. There’s no real secret about me and you.
Chris Goede:
Well, I mean, maybe, yeah, I think I fall a little bit more on the midline than you do. But that, well, that’s another story for another day.
Perry Holley:
Yeah. Well, when it becomes the only picture we recognize you. You overlook so much, you make a lot of assump. I like to go through maybe just looking at what these quiet leaders, what they bring and make sure, just give really my purpose here is that not just for all me and you, we need to be looking at our team and saying 100 who are these? What are the qualities they bring? And how can we really benefit from the leadership they bring and not discount them because they’re not as loud as me.
Chris Goede:
Yeah, that’s right. So let’s, let’s highlight some of those strengths. So first, man, they can steady a room. The introverted leader can steady a room. When tension is high, things are flying around, things are maybe flying at each other. Right. They bring a great calmness and they’re able to stay grounded no matter what the situation is. And I think when you do that, when you have that sense from that leader.
Chris Goede:
There’s a lot of stability in a team and I think that’s a tremendous attribute of a leader and a lot of quiet leaders bring that to the table.
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Perry Holley:
In the military, I’ve heard it’s, you know, calm is contagious and it’s the same in leadership as you’re saying. We don’t want to see our leader freaking out or running around with the heroin fire. No, when things are sideways we look to the leader and the leader can calm the room. That’s a superpower, I think to do that. They also I’m finding my introverted friends think more deeply than me. They don’t just I think I could be guilty of reacting and they are more guilty of reflecting and that that’s great. They bring, I don’t know because of that ability to think more deeply they bring different viewpoint than I might bring to the solution. They’re well considered when they think about their answers.
Perry Holley:
They’ve thought them through. I on the other hand, as a more extroverted might more reactive and not so well thought through. I hope this isn’t going to impact my employment at all, as I confess.
Chris Goede:
No, not at all. The other I think the other thing here is that they listen closely, whereas I think at times I can be in a listening mode. But I’m going to miss some of the, maybe the finer details of what may be even being communicated in between the lines. And I think those that can create a situation and almost kind of an environment, a quieter voice and they get to a place where they’re giving full undivided attention. It’s just natural for them to be able to do that. That’s their element. And oftentimes in one on one situations I’ve seen a lot of introverts that far exceed extroverts when it comes to leading people in that one on one environment. When it comes to listening and just.
Perry Holley:
To pile onto that, it’s really motivational that through their empathy. We did a whole podcast on the power of empathy. But these more thoughtful like you said, they’re, they’re really good in the one on one and they make you feel seen. They, they make you, they’re more thoughtful, they let you speak and it, they’re just very strong emotionally that they’re not swayed in emotional swings like a. More, a louder, more outgoing person might be. They really support people with intention and care. I think about that level two of five levels. Right.
Perry Holley:
They, they make that connection. Although they’re not going to maybe go out of the way to, to pursue a connection. They will. When, when, when you are in a one on one with them, you’ll feel seen.
Chris Goede:
Yeah. Yeah. And I also think that they’re going to bring a lot of focus. We tend to have a focus problem at times around Maxwell leadership. They bring that kind of quiet strength of where they’re at. Influence does not have to be something that you use a megaphone for. And I think that’s what we’re talking about. The difference between these, it’s not a personality contest.
Chris Goede:
It’s really about how are you wired and that we’re in the people business. How are you going to increase your influence and impact and value people. And so it’s not the loudest voice in the room. That’s right. You don’t need to do that. You just need to care. You need to listen and you need to help people grow. By the way, those three things that I just mentioned, those are level two skill sets.
Chris Goede:
Level three skill set, level four skill set.
Perry Holley:
I was just gonna.
Chris Goede:
And so that is when you look at that, it doesn’t matter how you go about doing it, whether it’s from an extrovert or from an introvert. The key is how do you go about leading in a way that gets at that connection and care? How do you get it to where we’re producing and we’re developing. You’re listening. And then finally at level four, you’re growing. The model works right? By the way, whether you’re introverted or extroverted.
Perry Holley:
I just wonder. I was just going to ask you. I think of myself and my personality that I’m really a level two expert. I’m. I’m really good at level two. Building connection, building relationships. Relationships are my bread and butter. I love it.
Perry Holley:
I can hang out there. Do you think an introverted leader is more driven to level three perfection. Are they the expert at level three really doing the process, the production, the results. Driven more naturally. I mean they have to do both. We have to do both level two and three. But I tend to camp out at level two. I wonder if extroverted leader camps out at level three.
Perry Holley:
I have to work at level three. They have to work at level too. But I haven’t really question thought about it in Introvert. Extrovert.
Chris Goede:
I don’t know because one of the things that jumps in my mind is that although you may be extroverted and you naturally lean towards connection at level two, the introverted leaders can do that as well, just in different environments. Yours. The more the merrier. Right. The where an introvert wants to do it but it’s going to be in smaller groups or it’s going to be in a one on one. Right. And so I think they may still naturally. They could naturally lean, you know, to level two or level three.
Chris Goede:
Probably a little bit different of maybe their, their drive and their makeup. But I don’t think that that’s a one way or another. I think it’s how that shows up though. How they connect with people, how they feel like that they can be relational and, and drive that level of influence. That’s just my initial reaction off of that.
Perry Holley:
And you know, introvert, extrovert is. I’ve had to remind myself of this many times is extrovert doesn’t mean you’re running around, you know, rah, rah, rah. Introvert means you’ve got your head down looking at your shoes. No, no, no. Introvert, Extrovert. My wife’s an introvert and she can be very engaging, very outgoing, very communicative. She’s, she’s can be the life of the party but not like she, she’ll. That will exhaust her.
Perry Holley:
It won’t. It energizes me.
Chris Goede:
Yeah. It’s from an energy standpoint.
Perry Holley:
Yeah. So she’ll want to renew her energy. She will want to be more alone, quiet. I want to renew my energy. I’ll go, I’ll be with people to do that. So there’s a little. That’s really real difference is so make sure we’re being clear here that there’s not one is not better than the other. These are both good.
Perry Holley:
So the, the extrovert brings that bold energy and quick thinking where the introvert brings calm clarity, deep focus, quiet strength. These are both very good things to have.
Chris Goede:
That’s good. Well, as we work to think about how we wrap this up and how we challenge. Whether you’re an extrovert or you’re an introverted leader, one of the things is that I want to say here are a couple questions. I just talked about the level two, level three, level four skill set. And then Perry challenged us to think, well, where do you naturally lean in? That I want to kind of give you again some practical questions, some takeaways that you can be asking yourself about this. And again, the title today is can an introvert be a leader? 100%. Can an extrovert be a leader? 100%.
Perry Holley:
Yes.
Chris Goede:
But are you growing your influence in the right way with the right motive? And so here are a couple questions. These would be level two questions for you. The first two, am I caring for my team and am I truly listening to others? That is part of that level two skill set. The next two that I want you to think about is am I helping my team win? Am I helping my team grow? Those are level three, level four questions. And then overall, I think when you look at why we believe in the five levels model so well, because everyone deserves to be led well, is that are we making a positive impact on people? And how you make a positive impact on people is that you do levels 2, 3 and 4 for, you know, so long so well that you have an incredible impact on those people. So those are a couple questions from a practical standpoint that I thought I would just throw out there. They can begin thinking about. It doesn’t matter.
Chris Goede:
Introverted or extroverted.
Perry Holley:
I love that is a pile on with that a bit. I just finished reading John new. Well, not newest book. I can’t keep up with what the newest book is, but it’s just come out in the last few months on the charismatic leader.
Chris Goede:
Yeah.
Perry Holley:
And I love that because many people will say, well, I’m just not charismatic or you’re more charismatic. Can an introvert be charismatic? Absolutely. And how John defines charisma and charismatic leadership is putting others the focus on others, not on you. And so I can think an extroverted leader can be non charismatic by making it all about them. An introverted can do the same thing. So this idea of judging your leadership potential by your volume is a big mistake. And if you’re growing leaders on your team, don’t assume leadership potential by the volume bias that we talked about earlier. I always look at these introverted style as like a superpower and how they develop their influence.
Perry Holley:
All of us have to be developing our influence. Whether you’re outgoing or more inward focused. It’s a, it’s a challenge for everybody to do that.
Chris Goede:
That’s good. Well, as we wrap up again, we’re going to go back and this is a pretty simple close for us. Understand the five levels of leadership. It is a not only a common language inside an organization that drives behaviors, it really helps people begin to understand how to think, act and interact, which is how we define culture from, you know, Greg Cagel’s description. And we have a course on culture. Understand the model because it doesn’t matter how you’re wired, introvert or extrovert, none of that matters. What matters is do you understand the, the levels of influence and that you’re on different levels with different people all the time and that you’re always moving and it’s fluid. And so it is something that you have to continually challenge yourself to look at with every single person that you have influence with.
Chris Goede:
Where are you at? What are you doing? You just do it in your own way, whether you’re introvert or extrovert.
Perry Holley:
Five levels was a game changer for me personally, and it’s really defined the leader that I’ve wanted to be. And if you want us to send you some information about the five levels of leadership or any of our other offerings, we’d be glad to do that. You can leave us a request at MaxwellLeadership.com/ExecutivePodcast. You can also learn about our other podcast offerings. You can also leave us a note or a question. We’d love to hear from you. We’re very grateful you spend this time with us. That’s all today from the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast.
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