Stop Being Nice!

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Perry Holley:
Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others, and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. Hi, I’m Perry Holley, a Maxwell Leadership facilitator and coach.

Chris Goede:
And I’m Chris Goede, Executive Vice President with Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining. Before we get started, I want to encourage you to go to MaxwellLeadership.com/ExecutivePodcast. there you can download the learner’s guide for today’s session. Or if you’re interested in some leadership coaching or training, we’d love to hear from you as well and our team will follow back up with you. Well, this is a source of contention between Perry and I, cause you know, Perry creates his content and sends over the titles. And the first one that I looked at was stop being nice. And so I was like, what do you mean stop being nice? Or yeah, was it the title?

Perry Holley:
The title of the subject of the. No to you.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, that’s right. But that’s what we’re going to talk about today. And this is for us that are level two bent. This is something I think we probably ought to listen to engage in. And so super excited to share our thoughts with you today because we are going to talk about as a leader, how do you stop being nice and

Perry Holley:
explain real quick level 2 bent in case nobody was.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, good, good, good question. So everything we do is based off the five levels. And at level two, when you, you increase your fluence influence with people because you’re connecting with them. So it’s that relational bent versus level three is when you move into production and go mode and you know, the people that run you over and spin spreadsheets and all that kind of good stuff and you’re naturally wired one way or another. Right. You’re either going to fall into those categories. And so because we are level two bent, we make fun of and pick on level three bent. But that, that is how, you know, a people relationally will connect with people.

Chris Goede:
So we say it’s level two bent. And so I’m very intrigued on where we’re going.

Perry Holley:
We’ll be the first ones to be fired because we’re not producing results.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, that’s right.

Perry Holley:
They’re reproducing results, but they’re making everybody mad. We’re making everybody happy but not producing results. It is so where this came from. Just finished reading Bernay Brown’s latest book, I highly recommend called Solid Ground. Strong Ground, sorry, strong Ground. And just a big fan of Dr. Brown anyway. But she made lots of good stuff in there.

Perry Holley:
But she made a comment in there, a quote. She said, stop being nice and telling people what they want to hear and start being kind and telling people what they need to hear. Now, I wrote that down and I thought, that’s clever, I get that. And we always talk, kind is clear, clear is kind, all that kind of stuff. But then I got on a coaching call. I mean, it was like within hours. And the executive I’m on the call with was replaying for me a meeting that he had been in. And there was a bit of a urgency going on in the business situation.

Perry Holley:
He had called in some help. One of the people, the junior people that he called in to help gave themselves permission to go into the senior executive’s office and start just diagnosing the problem. And had come up with a good idea, but it wasn’t urgent. It could be done later and it could be done more broadly. And I asked my exec, I said, what did you do? He says, well, I didn’t want to interrupt and I didn’t want to be rude and I didn’t want to. And I just feel my steam rising in my ears and I’m thinking, wait a minute. He was being nice and not being kind. He was being nice to let go on what he knew was not the best use of time.

Perry Holley:
He wasn’t being kind to tell people what they needed to hear, to be direct and to do that. And so I thought there’s a lesson here for a lot of Us. And I like you tying it to. If you’re a strong level two leader, where relationships are your bread and butter, you’re just really good at that and you have to work a little harder to drive the business. This is probably for you. But I’m going to tell you, you folks at level three probably could use a little more softness in understanding how to have empathy with people and that sort of thing.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. And I love you calling out the quote in strong ground because we do want you to be kind, like we’re having fun, like we do nice.

Perry Holley:
Which would be nice as well. You can be a nice guy.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. And there’s a difference. And what Perry’s driving out today, the other thing I want to call it really quick is what I love about that story is that if you weren’t pouring into yourself like you do, you wouldn’t have been able to serve this, this partner of ours that you’re coaching. And it’s just a great, great example and model that the more you pour in, the more it’s going to come out. And. And you know what? What you don’t put in is not going to come out. And you were able to give some really good nuggets right here on a coaching call because Perry is dedicated. He’s a voracious learner, and I love that example of that.

Chris Goede:
Just let that encourage you because your people, your team, they’re going to be coming to you every single day. And if you’re not pouring into yourself, then the question is, what are you going to be able to give them? And so as we talk about this, on the surface, really quick, going back to nice and being kind is that nice looks like kindness. Maybe it looks like you are supporting them. Maybe it looks like you’re easy to work with. But underneath that, that niceness really, is it driven by fear because you don’t want to confront the situation or you don’t want to call out the facts? Or maybe you don’t want to not be liked. I remember John Maxwell talking this a couple years ago about, you know, hey, do you want to be liked more than you want to lead? And then he unpacked that and in essence talking similar language about that. Not that you need to lead and be a complete, you know, turd to people.

Perry Holley:
Yeah.

Chris Goede:
But that you can do it in the right way. And so. Or maybe you’re just fearful that if you do say, hey, this is the truth, what their response is going to be, and then how do you handle that relationship forward? So I think there’s a lot of fear in that when people want to be nice versus being kind. I was going to say in. In their professional lives, but I also think this crosses over personally as well.

Perry Holley:
Very much so, for sure. And I’m going to tell you, if you’re leaning toward avoiding the hard thing and. And you’re avoiding the kind telling them what they need to know, you’re more nice just telling them what you want them to hear.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Perry Holley:
The team notices these things, and they notice. How does it show up. You’re avoiding hard conversations. You avoid giving feedback, or you give very vague feedback or only positive feedback. You don’t give them anything valuable. They notice when decisions are made more to keep the peace than to get things moving and move things forward. I think that was what happened with my coachee, was he didn’t want to rock the boat. I don’t think he wanted to embarrass the junior person.

Perry Holley:
But we started talking. Are there strategies and ways that you could have done that in a way to make it more positive and to actually complement the. The employee wasn’t wrong in what they were doing. It was just bad timing and it shouldn’t be done then, and it shouldn’t be consuming the time of the senior leader. So I noticed that over time, if you maintain this niceness without being more direct, that they stop bringing you real problems.

Chris Goede:
Right. Right.

Perry Holley:
I always ask that, are people telling you hard things? If people aren’t telling you hard things, there’s something up. They’re only telling you the good stuff. You’ve got a problem.

Chris Goede:
That’s right.

Perry Holley:
They stop expecting real answers from you. You just get platitudes and niceness, and then they stop growing. And I’m gonna tell you, it’s not because they don’t care. It’s because really, they don’t feel like you’re telling the truth. And I just think this is going back. Get all the circle back to are you telling people the truth? Even though it could be tough, it could be hard, it could be direct. But I’m gonna do it from kindness because I care about you. I’m gonna tell you this because you need to know it.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. Yeah. So let’s. Let’s. Let’s have some fun. Let’s jump in, and we’ll go to a little. A little chart here that you’ve created. And you give the nice version, and let’s see if we can then translate it.

Chris Goede:
And I’ll give the kind version, and I’m gonna.

Perry Holley:
You think that’s really the Best division of this. It’ll be good for you. It’d be out of your comfort zone.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. This is a coaching session right here live on this podcast with us. So, yeah, let’s do that. Let’s give a couple just examples.

Perry Holley:
I’m nice and you’re kind.

Chris Goede:
That’s right.

Perry Holley:
Okay. So Nice wants everyone to be comfortable

Chris Goede:
versus wanting them to grow. Right. Like, what is the nugget in this situation to take away? And just as you wrapped up even that section before. Growth won’t happen if you’re not.

Perry Holley:
Yeah. If nice is saying, let’s keep you in your comfort area.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Perry Holley:
Don’t challenge nice. What dodges the hard conversation versus kind

Chris Goede:
has them and really drives home clarity, because that’s really what matters. And so in a situation, if they leave your office or leave the meeting and they’re not clear and then they have a different perspective, it’s just gonna. It’s gonna cascade or multiply into a bigger problem.

Perry Holley:
Nice gives soft, blurry, vague feedback.

Chris Goede:
Kind gives honest feedback with care. I’m thinking about a conversation Sarah and I have had recently with these two scenarios. And I’ll let you guess which is on who was on what side. But yeah, we want to make sure that it is honest. But you do it in with. With care. You’ve heard of the velvet covered brick, right? Like you. You want to do it because you do care.

Chris Goede:
And we talk about this in leadership all the time. People are asking you, asking about their leader. Do they care for me?

Perry Holley:
Yeah.

Chris Goede:
But you can still have tough conversation, do it a kind way, and they know that you care for them.

Perry Holley:
Jeff Hancher, our friend from Firm Feedback, is whispering in my ear right now. I can hear him saying, I’m not being mean. I’m being firm, and I’m being kind. I’m telling you the truth. And he would definitely support this and that you can get so nice that we don’t tell people the hard thing. But he also talks about earning permission for that. So that’s another.

Chris Goede:
You gotta do that first. Yeah.

Perry Holley:
Nice protects your comfort as the leader. So I’m protecting my comfort. I’m being comfortable and staying in my comfort zone as the leader.

Chris Goede:
Kind supports someone else’s growth. We talked about even when it hurts, even when it’s hard to. To have that. Have that conversation.

Perry Holley:
Nice would hope that conflict will just take care of itself and poof, disappear.

Chris Goede:
It doesn’t happen.

Perry Holley:
It doesn’t happen.

Chris Goede:
Kind walks straight into it and is committed to work through it.

Perry Holley:
Yeah. It just doesn’t get Better with age.

Chris Goede:
No, it does not. You know, no. Matter of fact, I think it gets harder.

Perry Holley:
Yeah.

Chris Goede:
Because you delay it and then other things get piled onto it. Yeah.

Perry Holley:
You’ve almost given permission for it. Then people say, what, what, what are you talking about?

Chris Goede:
And then you want to address it. And it’s like all of a sudden now it’s kind about the entire body of work instead of right away.

Perry Holley:
Nice would be the leader that makes decisions to avoid upsetting people.

Chris Goede:
Kind makes fair decisions even when they are unpopular.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, that’s a tough one.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Perry Holley:
Nice celebrates to stay liked and then

Chris Goede:
kind celebrates what is actually real. And that’s the key. I think all of us have learned lessons throughout our leadership journey where it was not easy to receive some of the information, but those that did it in a kind way, man, it was real and it worked and we grew from it and it was the best thing that could have. Could have happened to us. So this is uncomfortable. You can hear Perry and I go back and forth, right? Like this is part of leadership. That’s not fun. And because being nice, often it does feel good in the moment, but it’s not the long term solution.

Chris Goede:
And I don’t know who said this. And so it may have been Brene in one of her earlier things where it was hard, easy versus easy, hard. And basically they were talking about, hey, have the hard conversation in a kind way so that it’s easier to have the next one or it’s easier than to lead in the future or to have a connection versus doing the easy thing. And then it gets hard and it becomes a mess. Because if you don’t, I know I have a tendency to do this at times. You want to avoid the awkwardness, you want to avoid someone just responding in a negative way or you’re hurting their feelings and that’s not easy to receive. But what you’re really doing is just borrowing. And I love the statement you’re just borrowing comfort in the now, and then you’re going to pay for it later.

Chris Goede:
And that’s what made me think about that little phrase. There was that statement you had in there. And so whereas kindness, on the other hand, often feels harder in the moment, but promise it builds something far more valuable over time. And that is the trust of the individual. And I think trust comes when it’s delivered the right way, with care, with kindness. But you still got it, you still got to deliver it.

Perry Holley:
Yeah. And that’s really true. This how it all comes back to trust. That trust really you think is not Built on all these pleasant interactions. Trust, it’s built really on your sharing truth and your concern, consistent in your behaviors. And you said it a couple times. Clarity is that I’m going to reach out to be really crystal clear about what the expectations are, crystal clear about whatever we’re talking about. And I’m going to not just do it every now and then, do it consistently and by speaking truth.

Perry Holley:
And even if it’s uncomfortable, it’s going to build trust with people because they know they can count on you. As Jeff Hancher would say, they actually want you once you have this. They want you to give them the feedback. They want you to talk directly to them because they know you have their best interest at heart. But when leaders default to being nice and get away from this feedback is really unpredictable. You don’t know if, I don’t know if I should give it. I don’t know if I should say anything. My exec.

Perry Holley:
I don’t know if I should interrupt to do this. Expectations stay unclear. Well, I didn’t know what you wanted. I wouldn’t care. You said do this, but it was vague because you didn’t want to say I need you to do this and this and this. Are there any questions? I mean you’re being very direct but it sounds harsh to some people that have a relationship bent and accountability, that third leg of the performance feedback stool, it really becomes very unpredictable. When are we going to hold people accountable? Well, that seems uncomfortable. I don’t want to say anything.

Perry Holley:
I don’t know if I should. No, I’m going to hold you accountable because we had clear expectations and you know I care about you. So I’m going to, I’m going to, we’re going to have a talk about this.

Chris Goede:
Let’s put the business hat on for just a minute. We have a lot of executive leaders that are listening, people that are leading teams and organizations. How healthy is the business when it’s unpredictable? Right. It’s not. It’s the same thing with our leadership. I was just thinking about this as you were sharing that. How do we get to a place to where there is consistency and that our people can. We are predictable and how we’re going to, how we’re going to get feedback and how we’re going to do it and we’re going to do it in the right way.

Chris Goede:
We’re going to be kind and not nice. And you talked about, about Jeff Hancher and super excited about his brand new book. More importantly, we’ve now taken the book in partnership you and he have made it very applicable, and we’re going to be delivering this in coaching and training organizations around the world. And it’s really the essence of what he calls the performance management. You’re setting clear expectations, you’re giving regular feedback, and you’re holding people accountable. It’s the exact opposite of what Perry was just talking about. And how do you make that switch to be able to do that? And we talked about you got to earn the right to do that. That’s where the five levels of leadership come in.

Chris Goede:
To earn the right to do that, you’ve better been building your influence over time and getting past that level, too, so that you do have that with them. And the trust is there to be able to have that conversation. And that comes through, obviously, not only just connecting relationally, but setting clear expectations, having a strong relationship with them and the people on your team, leading them the way they need to be led, not leading everybody the same way. And when you do that, you’re gonna. You’re gonna build trust, and your ability to be kind and tell people whatever they need to hear is not gonna be easy, but it’s gonna be easier than if you just try to do it without that.

Perry Holley:
Yeah. So before we wrap up, let’s just give a couple of real practical little ideas, because this was something that be honest I had to work through, because I am the level two, just like you. Yeah, I’m really good relationship. But number one would be, say the honest thing with care. And so just. I think it’s really balancing honesty with care is that honesty without care obviously sounds harsh, but care without honesty is really kind of useless, and you’ve got to have both to do that. So I was thinking, if you have to say something direct, I remember John saying in communication around connection over content, connection over content, no matter what the content is, I always protect the connection. This happens at home, guys, a lot.

Perry Holley:
It’s a great place to practice, is no matter what you need to say to your significant other, say it in a way that the connection. Your relationship, will be preserved after you say it.

Chris Goede:
That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. Another one is listen before you respond. I could have stopped after the word listen. Okay. Because we know that. But listening is different than hearing.

Chris Goede:
That is great. But then another step, and Perry and I love to talk about this, and it’s a word that I think leaders need to continue to figure out, which is curiosity. Like, are you really listening? To make sure that you’re getting behind what they’re talking about or what the leader’s talking about. To have clear understanding that I think is key in this process. And then the next one is setting clear expectations early and then making sure that they understand what you said. Because oftentimes what I’m thinking and what I think I said is not what I said. And so if there’s clarity on the front end, for example, let’s say I have a team member and I’m like, okay, so what did you hear me say? Where are we at on that? That repeated back. Okay, so we’re in alignment with that.

Chris Goede:
Good. So then with I have to follow up, then it’s a little bit easier. I can still be kind of, but have a tough conversation because we were both on the same page. But oftentimes there’s not clarity on the front end, which makes it even harder for us as leaders, because I go, well, maybe I didn’t do a good job of telling them. But if you do that on the front end and set those expectations and then have them repeat it back to you so that you’re on the same page, it makes it a little bit easier because you both agreed on the front end. Yeah.

Perry Holley:
And our firm feedback course, we spent a lot of time on how do you actually construct a clear expectation? And really the art of making sure people are really crystal clear on what you mean. No vagueness in that. Another practical step is to give feedback with specifics, not softness. And this means that vague feedback may sound, feel safe to you, like, I’m not going to ruffle any feathers or cause any conflict, but it doesn’t help anyone improve. And so go back to what Chris was saying about if you’ve earned the right and people know that you care about them and they have clear expectations, they want you to help them improve. And then finally, the fifth one I had was that the most important word in leadership consistency is, especially when it’s hard, being consistent. And there are going to be times when anybody can say it when it’s easy, but there are going to be times when it’s hard. And you think I should let this go? Don’t let it go.

Perry Holley:
Say it when it needs to be said and be specific about what you’re addressing. And you can be kind in doing it with empathy, but the goal is to help people get better.

Chris Goede:
Well, as I wrap up, I want you to think about some of the greatest growth experiences that you’ve been through. Some of the greatest leaders that have spoken into to your journey, they are there for a reason, and it often is because they helped you grow now. And they did it in the right way. It just didn’t make it comfortable for you. But they were actually giving you firm feedback. Just doing it in a kind way. Weren’t nice. I can think right now about some leaders that weren’t very nice.

Chris Goede:
And I learned. But man, I learned so much more from people that delivered in a way that was kind. And they challenged me, they believed in me, they saw more in me than I saw in myself and actually spoke it into existence for me. And it would have been a lot easier for them just to be nice and I would not have grown to where I’m at today. And so I think the greatest return on investment as leaders when you see other people excelling out past you. And the only way to do that is to be able to have these type of conversations in a kind way. So a couple questions for you as we wrap up. Where in your leadership are you being nice instead of being kind? How do we need to make that transition? Second one.

Chris Goede:
What conversations are you avoiding? We’re all avoiding them personally and professionally. What feedback are you softening for somebody else that maybe needs to be delivered a little bit kinder, harder? And then finally, what truth are you holding back about a performance, your performance, but other people on the team that needs to be put out on the table?

Perry Holley:
Fantastic. Thanks, Chris. Great stuff. As a reminder, you can go to MaxwellLeadership.com/ExecutivePodcast. you can learn about our offerings there. You can also see our other podcasts in our podcast family or get the learner guide for this episode. You can also leave us a comment or a question there. We love hearing from you.

Perry Holley:
Very grateful you’d spend this time with us today. That’s all from the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast.

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