Executive Podcast #342: Leaders Who Attract Leaders

Perry Holley:
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Perry Holley:
So you can stop managing the details and start leading with vision. So if you’re ready for the next step to the path to great leadership, download Belay’s free leadership toolkit. Inside you’ll find ways to become stronger leader and get more out of your work. Just text the words exec to 55123 for your free copy of today. That’s exec to 55123 to get back to conquering those goals with Belay. Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others, and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. Hi, I’m Perry Holley, a Maxwell Leadership facilitator and coach.

Chris Goede:
And I’m Chris Goede, Executive Vice President with Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining. I am super excited about what we’re going to cover today in our podcast. As you guys know, Perry creates this content. We talk about the fact that influence is leadership, leadership is influence and we just, we talk about it like everybody is the same type of leader or can be and to some extent that’s true. But today we’re going to talk a little bit about a differentiator that we think you just need to be aware of. So I’m super excited about that. Before we get started I want to encourage you to go to MaxwellLeadership.com/Podcast and there if you click on this episode there’ll be a form.

Chris Goede:
If you have a question, comment for pair your eye some some content or you wanna learn more about the five levels of leadership which is the framework of what we set for every culture inside the organization. You can leave a comment there and we will follow back up with you. Well, today’s topic is titled Leaders who Attract Leaders. And as I was talking about my opening statement, there are leaders that attract followers and like to lead followers and then there are leaders who attract other leaders. And we’re gonna kind of unpack this for you a little bit today cause we all the time. In, in and across every industry, every size company. And so I love that we’re going to unpack this. It does remind me of two laws that John has for the 21 laws of leadership.

Chris Goede:
We say it like that. The book is really 21 irrefutable laws of leadership. We don’t like to say the word irrefutable. It takes too long. But if you have not read that book, I want to encourage you.

Perry Holley:
You said it twice in a row.

Chris Goede:
Well done. It’s part of my job requirement. This is a book that is Amanda withstands all, all time. I. My kids are both beginning to get into the business world just recently, and I. I put a little note in there and I sent them both a copy and you’re looking at me and you said, how long have you worked for John? Have they not read the book already? No, they have not. They have not read that book already, but it’s a powerful book. So the two laws that, that I want to bring to your attention that are in that book.

Chris Goede:
The first one is the law of respect, where people naturally follow better leaders than themselves. They have that respect. The other one is the law of magnetism. And this is where it’s who you are, is who you attract. And we talk to leaders about all this all the time because they want to improve their team. They want talent to come in and they go, hey, I. I want that type of person. And then we say, well, are you that type of leader? Like, what is that level? And so it’s not who that you want often that you attract.

Chris Goede:
It’s. It’s more of who you are. So excited to dive into this concept for you today.

Perry Holley:
It’s funny doing. We do group coaching as well as individual. Two of my groups are doing. We. I gave them an option and they wanted to do the 21 laws. So you read like three laws. We do eight months and we get three laws a month type of thing. And a couple of two long months, if you do the math.

Chris Goede:
I was in my head there just for a minute, and I was like, oh, yeah.

Perry Holley:
But we just were doing one this morning and it was on the law of magnetism. So I love that about who you are is what you attract and thinking about this. But you think about leaders who attract only followers, are never really able to do anything other than what they can personally touch or supervise. You’re all the only one there. But John talks a lot about when you develop other leaders, you multiply. Instead of adding, you’re multiplying yourself So I thought we would about some characteristics of attract leaders and leaders who attract followers and let you bounce those around. I’ll give you some ideas on those. But first one was that leaders that attract followers I’m finding need to be needed and leaders that attract leaders want to be succeeded.

Perry Holley:
Got that from John. But yeah, I just, I love that. Is it a personal insecurity thing? What’s going on there?

Chris Goede:
I think this coming back to the five levels of leadership, I think that this is a leader that at level one, right. Because of the title, because of the ability to command and control, the ability to kind of steer the ship with hands on. This is what they get excited, is what they focus on. And we talk about this. These are leaders that they stay right there and there’s a lot of them in corporate America and, and so they absolutely feel like they need to have control. And so one of the things I wrote down here was this is a self centered leadership, more than a sustainable growth. Right. Leadership, it’s about them.

Chris Goede:
It’s all self centered. How can we serve the leader? What looks best for the leader? And it really goes against everything that we teach because we talk about all the time. How do we get to a place where you have level one leadership but then increase your influence in order to grow? That takes a lot of connecting, a lot of empowering, a lot of developing of which that does not happen in those that really just want to attract leaders and individuals that will just follow because they need to be needed.

Perry Holley:
We often ask leaders, I do, when I’m in workshops, are you the kind of leader that wants to see things work without you or do you need to say things, see things work because of you? And leaders that want to see things work without them, they’re empowering, they’re growing the people, they’re growing other leaders. And if you have to see it work because of you, you’re probably keeping people at arms arm’s length and not allowing them in. So you need to be important, you need to be needed. And that’s a dangerous, dangerous thing. Another one was leaders who attract followers want recognition and leaders who attract leaders want to reproduce themselves. So it goes from having the spotlight on you to making more of you.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Perry Holley:
Reproducing.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. This is a, again we’re going to talk about the five levels throughout this because this is really what we build all of our content off of. But those that are needed, I, they, they train followers to be better followers. Right? Like they, they train them to a skill set. It’s a okay, hey, that is your job. Let me tell you how to do your job better. Right? Like, they train and pour into people and they say, no, no, no, I, I had value. I, I develop.

Chris Goede:
But we’re going to talk about that a little bit later on. But where they train them to be better followers, the. The ones on the other, other side of it, where they want to develop people to lead, and they’re going to be able to help coach those individuals through challenges and empower them and look at their role a little bit differently and not be needed as much. Like, not have as much control. And so there’s a distinct difference between the two of them.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, it’s. It’s a, It’s a personal level, personal insecurity that, yeah, I let things go because I am really helping the business. I’m helping the customer by multiplying. Instead of just adding more of me to everything, I’m multiplying me to be in more places.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Perry Holley:
Leaders who attract followers focus on other people’s weaknesses. And people. Leaders that attract leaders focus on other people’s strengths. Does that resonate with you? Do you think about that one?

Chris Goede:
Yes. This is, for me, I wrote down, this is really about motivation and inspiration. Kind of the approach that even the belief. Do they really even believe in the people? Like, what’s their belief in the people to be able to get away from the leader that just wants to have followers. And you and I both worked for leaders, and many of you listening or watching, have where you go, me, they didn’t believe in me. Or at least my perception was they didn’t believe in me. There was no inspiration, no motivation behind it because they wanted me to kind of just stay in my little role, stay in my little lane, continue to be, you know, that follower of a leader versus, you know, you think about leader that leverages the strengths of people. That’s why we’re sitting here today.

Chris Goede:
Your strength is content, mine is not. Right. And so a long time ago, we talked about this. I could have said, no, it’s my podcast. But I asked for Perry’s help, and that’s his sweet spot with our content with podcasts is his strength. And so it’s like, hey, how do we get to a place to where we multiply what individuals are bringing to the team so that the whole team raises versus just having these followers and kind of staying in their weakness and not. Not praying on their weakness? But I do, I would say maybe sometimes I’ve seen leaders where they. They get excitement out of making sure they’re watching other people’s weaknesses and.

Chris Goede:
And picking those apart versus saying, man, Perry, you do this really well. Like, I want you to take this and run with it for the team. And so I think there’s a big difference in there. And I think it. I think the underlying thing is around belief.

Perry Holley:
So what you’re saying, if you’d have done content, this would have died a death long time ago.

Chris Goede:
You know how we’re at, like, over 350, we wouldn’t have made it past 35. Okay, so that’s what I’m saying.

Perry Holley:
But your point is a good one, that we. I remember having this discussion. I wrote the first two, and I said, no, you want to write. I didn’t want to take it away. It was your podcast. I didn’t want to take it away from you. But you said, no, your strength is content. And I said, and your strength is reacting against content.

Perry Holley:
You bring a very good point of view. You said, I’m not the creative. I said, well, I am the creator. And you said, but I’d like to react against what you create. I thought, beautiful. Now we just understand what we’re doing. We didn’t play. Anybody had a weakness there.

Perry Holley:
But I think about leaders. I’ve worked for that. If they call out, they’re playing off your weaknesses. They want you to remain a follower. They’re pushing you down. They’re reminding you almost that you don’t have what it takes. Here’s where you’re weak. But that leader that calls out your strength is calling you to a higher level.

Perry Holley:
I’m challenging you to do more. You have a next level. Call out my weaknesses. You’ve attained your level, and you’re not good. You call out my strings. You’re pushing me to a higher level. I just love that.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, it’s great.

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Perry Holley:
So leaders who attract followers spend time with others. Leaders who attract leaders invest time. So this is a spend versus invest.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. This again, I’m going to talk about now level four, where we talk about kind of reproducing ourselves as leaders. And you do that, you gain influence with people. And in some of our training and some of our coaching and even the content that you have created for us, we talk about the difference between training and developing. And I mentioned a little bit earlier, I was like, hey, those are. We want to train them to be better followers. That you still have to have training and you still have to have a skill set where you’re, you’re investing in and making them better at their role. But the, the next step is, are you willing to then invest your time and develop them? And I think what ends up happening is we all want to invest our time.

Chris Goede:
And when you make an investment, you want to know what the return on investment is.

Perry Holley:
Exactly. Yeah.

Chris Goede:
And so by going that route, a training is. They’re going to do their job a little bit better. So by the way, they’re just following you, your leadership. They’re falling in line with the team. When you begin to develop and you invest your time in them, you’re going to start seeing their, if you do it the right way, their, their wings kind of spread. They’re going to have more opportunities, they’re going to get opportunities maybe even outside of your team. And are you willing to do that? And I think what ends up happening is when you do that, you become a leader of leaders versus a leader of followers.

Perry Holley:
Do you find that the word, as I’m hearing you speak the word intentionality, intention, intentional jumps out of me, is that when I’m coming into contact with anyone on my team, my peers, my ball, anybody, it’s tempting to just want to hang out or just, you know, blow time with you. I’m, I’m in your presence, whatever. But intentional says I’m thinking, what’s my investment strategy with you? So I know I’m going to spend time with Chris Goede today. What am I going to do? What Bring questions am I going to bring? What topics are we going to cover? How can I make common ground? How can I make a connection? What, how can I be intentional about these minutes? Did we blow some time talking about the ball game and what we did this week? Yes, of course. That there’s small talk for sure, but I think the real people that are attracting leaders are saying I’m being intentional. About my conversations with people.

Chris Goede:
And wouldn’t you agree that as you begin to build that leadership tree, that you have to be intentional because you have more and more leaders that are on your team and you’re attracting them. And, and you’re going to have less and less time because your responsibilities are no doubt probably growing through the organization. And so that means you’re going to have some time constraints. So when you do have time, or the fact that you need to make time to invest in people, you better be intentional about it because otherwise it’s just going to be. You’re just going to be spinning your wheels.

Perry Holley:
Another one says that leaders who attract followers may experience some success, but leaders who attract leaders will experience incredible success. So it’s not that you’ll be without success if you’re just having a bunch of followers, but it looks like there’s a amplification of success whether you have leaders.

Chris Goede:
John talks a lot about this when it comes to, you know, going from success to significant. And that means a lot of things to us here at Maxwell Leadership. But I think there are men and women that are on our team, on your team, if you’re listening or watching us, that if you think about it, you absolutely could have some success with them. But to really multiply that success, not only for your team and your organization, but also for them personally, and you take them on that journey of success to significance in whatever they’re doing, 100% there’s a difference. And, and I think from a being a leader of leaders, you want to see people go from being successful to. And, and a successful follower. And by the way, we are all followers. Right.

Chris Goede:
Like, anyways, m going, everybody in the entire earth is following somebody.

Perry Holley:
Right? Right.

Chris Goede:
And so what does that look like? The other thing is around this is that you and I talk a lot about culture. And I think that this point you bring to us right here of saying, hey, yeah, you’re going to attract followers and you’re going to have some success. But if you really attract leaders and you and you multiply that success that permeates throughout your culture, and then pretty soon it’s just going to begin to multiply the type of culture you have and the leaders that you have. And if you do it in a way where they just have limited success, they’re going to, at times they’re going to feel like they’re stuck. They have a win here, but then they’re stuck. They’re going to be fearful of making mistakes to try to do things differently. Whereas if you’re about leading leaders. There’s gonna be a lot of trust, a lot of ownership, a lot of growth.

Chris Goede:
And so I think there’s just a completely different mindset when you look at like that.

Perry Holley:
And as I’m hearing you talk, I think we use the word attract leaders. Our brain naturally goes to. You mean somebody with a title. We’re gonna. No, this is. Even if I’m a leader of a team, I want everybody on that team to be thinking like a leader, which is they’re developing their influence, they’re doing developing their thinking, they’re developing their communication, they’re developing their team play, they are acting like leader. Maybe one day will they have a title and multiply my organization with a leadership pipeline? Perhaps. But if I had everybody on my team, I’m attracting people that have a leader mindset, that are high influential people, even though they may not have a title.

Perry Holley:
They’re leaders from the middle.

Chris Goede:
Love that. Well, as we wrap up Perry and I don’t want you to ever forget that it starts with your own personal growth. And I think that’s tied into this, is that as you gain influence and you become a leader, the only way for you to really attract leaders and to get comfortable leading leaders is to make sure that you are growing yourself like you are continuing. Find yourself an executive coach, find yourself content that you can dive into whatever it might be so that you are growing yourself. Because it goes back to what we talked about. You attract magnetism. You tracked who you are, not what you want on your team. And so we got to make sure that it starts there first.

Chris Goede:
I think the other thing is, is that what type of leadership legacy do we want to leave? We talk about that around Maxwell Leadership a lot because of where John is and what’s the legacy that he has left and that he wants to leave with people. And it’s about multiplication. It’s not just status quo or one plus one. Right. I mean, it’s gotten to a point because he’s leading leaders. And then I’m going to close with this statement. I’ve heard you say this before and I wrote it down. And I may not phrase it exactly like you do in your training or your coaching, but I wrote down, do people rise because of the leader or in spite of the leader? And there are sometimes, I know that people inside teams are rising, but it’s in spite of the fact that their leader is keeping them in a box trying to be a follower.

Chris Goede:
And there’s a little bit of competitiveness that comes out versus do you really sit back and look at it and you go, man, are my people rising because of my leadership? And if you want to internalize this, I would encourage you to even sit back and say what’s my leadership tree look like? And it doesn’t have to be direct reports. It’s like it’s influence with people. You’ve community, family, church, volunteer groups, past organizations. What are those men and women doing right now? And I think that’ll give you a really good glimpse on what, what you may need to change.

Perry Holley:
Terrific. Great insights. Thank you. And as a reminder, if you would like the learner guide for this episode, if you’d like to learn more about our offerings or if you’d like to leave us a or a comment, you may do all of that at MaxwellLeadership.com/Podcast. We love hearing from you. We’re very grateful you spend this time with us. That’s all today from the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast.