Maxwell Leadership Podcast: How to Be a Leader People Love to Follow

Mark Cole:
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Mark Cole:
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Mark Cole:
My name is Mark Cole and I can’t wait for you to listen to John Maxwell’s lesson today. I’ve heard John talk about his dad, Melvin Maxwell, many times. I’ve met Melvin Maxwell. I’ve been impacted by Melvin Maxwell. But today, John’s lesson, he wraps it as a tribute to his dad and I love it. And I think you’ll understand why. Because don’t we all want to be a leader that people love to follow? That’s John’s question today. What does it take to be a leader that people love to follow? After this lesson, I’ll be joined by my friend and co host, Traci Morrow to help you apply what John has shared to your life and to your leadership.

Mark Cole:
If you’d like to download the free bonus resource for this episode or watch it on YouTube, you can go to MaxwellPodcast.com/LoveToFollow now let’s listen to John as he talks to us about being a leader that others love to follow.

John Maxwell:
I want to talk on the subject how to be a leader that people love to follow. Haven’t there been leaders in your life that they just inspired you and lifted you and you could pretty much just hardly wait to get to work because you knew when you got to work that good, good things were gonna happen and relationships were strong. And we all know people that we just love to Follow. And then is it not true that in our experiences we’ve also had leaders that we didn’t love to follow? We probably had leaders that we didn’t love. We probably had leaders that didn’t love us. So what does it take? I mean, what does it take to be a leader that people love to follow? That’s what I wanna wanna talk to you about today. Now, one of the major mess ups in leadership is what I call assumptions. In fact, I say assumptions is the mother of all mess ups and assumptions.

John Maxwell:
The assumption gap is the gap between what I think is true and what is truly true. But what do I think? Does it match the reality? You know, Max Dupree said the first responsibility of a leader is to define reality. And what I find is that many leaders lead by assumption, know where their people are, they think they know what their people need and it’s not true at all. And so I share that with you because this survey was certainly a billboard for assumption because the leaders said, well, the way we can improve our leadership is through technology and through finances. And the people on the team, the other side said no, you can improve your leadership by getting becoming a better leader. And you can improve your leadership by becoming emotionally intelligent. And by the way, when they said improve your leadership, basically leadership asked the question where are you taking me? And emotional intelligence asked the question how are you treating me? And basically the people on the team, they said where are you taking us and how are you treating us? And I think this is just such an important lesson for me. I hope it’s an important lesson for you.

John Maxwell:
And by the way, the title of the lesson is how to be a leader that people love to follow. It is not entitled how to be a leader that people love. Not talking about a popularity contest, I am talking about respect. But respect is always earned on difficult ground. And in our social media culture where we want to know how many likes we have, we’re developing a whole bunch of leaders that aren’t leaders at all. They basically are poll takers. So what I’m going to share with you really, really works. And I think that there are three feelings that followers always have if they have a leader that they love.

John Maxwell:
And let me give you those three feelings and then let me teach. I think that if you follow a leader that you love, you always feel valued. I think that’s at the core. If I’m following a leader that I love, I can tell you for a fact that I feel valued by that leader. I secondly, I think I feel inspired. There’s something lifting about their leadership that I just. I just. I’m inspired when I’m around them.

John Maxwell:
I’ve had mentors like that. John Wooden, who was the great coach at ucla, mentored me for several years. And I said, wonderful what the coach says, but it’s more wonderful just to experience the coach. He inspired me. And I think when you follow a leader that you love, you not only feel inspired and valued, I think you feel empowered. So the question is, how do we develop a culture where people feel valued, inspired and empowered? That’s the question. When people join a company, when they become a part and they’re hired or employed into an organization, it’s the company that usually hires them. So they’re brought in by the company.

John Maxwell:
But when people leave an organization or a company, they don’t leave an organization, they leave a leader. Always. It’s a leader that either didn’t value them, didn’t inspire them, or didn’t empower them that when they leave the company, they don’t leave the company, they leave a person. And so it’s very important for you and I to know how to have those characteristics and qualities that we are leaders that people just love to. They love to follow in our life. So how do I have the people on my team always feel valued, inspired and empowered? Let’s go number one. As leaders, we need a heart to care. If we have a heart to care, this will convey value to our people.

John Maxwell:
We may forget what a person said, we may even forget what they did, but we will always remember how that leader made us feel. And when I thought about that statement, and when I thought that leaders have a heart to care and they value the people that they lead, I thought, okay, let me see if I can get this as solid as I possibly can so you can get your hands on it and your feet can stand on it, and it will really hold you. It’s good and secure. Appreciate a person more than than you think they should be appreciated. Value a person more than you think they should be valued. See a person higher than even they can see themselves. You see, it’s wonderful when people believe in their leader, but it’s even more wonderful when the leaders believe in their people. The question I have for you is, do your people notice that they matter to you? And how do you know that they know that? And what do you do that makes them know that? And maybe even more important, what are you going to do this week to say to the people on your team, I notice and you matter.

John Maxwell:
In other words, I have a heart to care. I value you. If you’re going to be a leader that people love to follow, are you inspiring them? Are you inspiring them by your example? Can you do what a great leader always does? Look at the people that you lead and say, follow me. And they gladly get up and follow you because there’s an inspirational quality there in your life. So the question that I have to ask about myself and you need to ask about yourself is very simple. What am I doing to inspire my team? How do I inspire my team? Do my team members feel inspired? Have I asked them? Do I inspire you? And what can I do right now to inspire my people? I wrap this up again talking about my father because he was a leader people love to follow. And so if you’ll give me one minute, I only take a minute. You gotta know that the secret of him becoming that type of leader was his faith.

John Maxwell:
The greatest leader, I think, ever. Okay. If you’re not a person of faith, relax. It’s okay. My name’s John. I’m your friend. Incredible leader. Started with just a dozen people, built a movement that today has millions, billions of people.

John Maxwell:
And so my father looked at Jesus and saw how he valued everyone. That’s the DNA of Christ. He saw how he not only valued everyone, but he inspired him. And he inspired them through servanthood, through washing his disciples feet and then saying to his disciples, this is the kind of leader you need to be to serve your people. I say that because he learned them in his faith through Jesus and I learned them from dad and I pass them on to you. So I dedicate the lesson to dad who was a leader that loved to follow. And I pass them on to you, believing that this lesson will help you to be a leader that others love to follow. Thanks for letting me share with you today.

Mark Cole:
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Mark Cole:
He said, become the kind of leader that people would follow voluntarily even if you had no title or position. And I love this. Again, I mentioned in my pre show that John really admires his dad. He’ll still light up about his dad to this day as he talks about him. In fact, one of the stories that John tells about his dad is one of our standout statements, which is respect is always earned on difficult ground. John talks about Tracy. You’ve heard him talk about when his board was really giving John’s dad a very difficult time. John’s dad never talked about it at dinner, never talked about it in front of the family.

Mark Cole:
And John only knew about this because he walked into the library one late night and heard his dad praying out loud and praying both for the challenge and that God would bless the challengers. And I think it’s moments like that is that difficult ground to where we catch people’s attention, we catch their heart, and they begin to love following leaders who’ve earned that respect on difficult ground. Don’t you think so?

Traci Morrow:
I agree. I agree. And I always think when he shares situations like that, where he learned that from his dad, I try to learn from, from that too. I try to think, gosh, who are people? What are people catching me doing? The things that, you know, his dad probably never even knew that John walked in and saw him do that. And I think, what are my kids catching me doing? What are people in my team catching me doing and observing me doing when I don’t even know I’m being observed? So I think it’s a great way to kick things off. And I, I love this, but because don’t we all want to be someone, a leader who people love to follow because we are practicing what we preach, whether people are seeing us or not. So he kicks off talking about, and I would love for us to talk about that. I think we’re getting more and more young followers, which I just love about that in our podcast.

Traci Morrow:
So let’s talk to young leaders. Let’s talk to those young leaders who have been conditioned. You know, they are, they are unique leaders because they have been conditioned to want the loves, the hearts on social media. And that for better or for worse, I think there it lands on both sides. Can, can be something that you can be striving for, but for the worst part of things, it can create people pleasers, people who are just wanting that bump of being loved. And he differentiates between A people, a person. A leader that people love and a person that people love to follow. Gosh, that’s like a tongue twister.

Mark Cole:
Yeah, it is.

Traci Morrow:
So are there some things that they can do to set up new expectations for themselves?

Mark Cole:
Yeah, you know, so one is. I do think that that distinction is super important in this lesson. In fact, it wasn’t until John made that distinction that I got comfortable with the lesson. Let me explain. See, John spent 18 months. We talk often. When John and I do Q and A, he wants me up there with him, and I enjoy it. I love doing Q and A with John, and we tell often about the most difficult lesson for me to learn or the most difficult season for him to mentor me was when he taught me the difference between being loved and being respected, or being loved, being and actually leading.

Mark Cole:
John asked me the question. I’ll never forget this question. He said, mark, you’re going to have to determine do you want to be loved or do you want to lead? And I went, both. Yes, yes. A, B, A, B, C. What’s the third option? I want them all. And John said, no, no, no. There’s some times, Mark, as a leader, you’re going to have to pick between loving, being loved or leading and leading others.

Mark Cole:
And I’ll tell you, Traci, I’ve told this often publicly as well as here on the podcast, that that was a super hard lesson for me because I’ve made this statement before as well. I am a recovering people pleaser. Yes, that’s me. My name’s Mark Cole. I am a recovering people pleaser because as a people oriented leader, I want everyone to feel good about the direction and the. The destiny or the process of getting to that direction. And sometimes as leaders, you can’t make people happy and get them where they need to be. And that distinction that John made in this lesson was very important because I want to be a leader that people love to follow, but not because of loyalty, but because of respect.

Mark Cole:
I want to be a leader that people love to follow, not because of my people skills, but. But because I am the leader that can help us get to the next level. People skills should be a tool to get production, not the results. And too often we spend more time trying to get 100% vote rather than doing what John says. And that is vision oftentimes separates people, not unifies people. Good leadership sometimes makes people uncomfortable, not comfortable. Effective influence is not always about making people feel good about themselves, but feeling uncomfortable about themselves. And that distinction, Traci, is what John’s talking about here.

Mark Cole:
We’ve got to be a leader that people love to follow. And oftentimes they will love us because they love to follow us, not they will love to follow us because they love us. And there is a pecking order to that concept. You’ve got to get respect so that people will love to follow you.

Traci Morrow:
That is so good. And I want to dive in, in just a moment about the particulars of what that looks like in those first few hard conversations, maybe as you are peeling away from being a people pleaser. But first I want to talk about assumptions, because he talks about them being the mother of all mess ups. And we as human beings, we just assume and we don’t. We don’t even maybe realize that we’re doing it. But you know, assumptions. Somebody says something, somebody does something, and what does it do? Our brain is continually reading situations and it is triggering, it’s triggering a memory of something that we have experienced before. And it’s, and it’s telling us for, for better and for worse, this has happened before.

Traci Morrow:
This is, it’s helping us discern the situation. And it might be in a, in a leadership situation on both sides. It’s saying you’ve experienced this before, you’ve seen this. It causes us to title the situation and maybe the person who we are leading. And so then we will handle the situation based on the assumption that we’ve made based on how somebody has behaved, how somebody has handled something, and then we handle it based on that assumption. So how can a leader get out of that trap? Because it happens without us really even thinking it is something that happens just so rapid fire. We assess, we assume, and we respond. So how do we stop notice what’s happening internally within us and then stop leading with assumptions?

Mark Cole:
Boy, it’s so. It’s such a good question. I’ve got it. I’ve got to give you a disclaimer. To you, Traci, first of all, and to our podcast viewers and podcast listeners, I’m still learning this. I think there is a fine line between intuition an assumption. I think there’s a fine line between leaders that have a propensity to act and leaders that have the wisdom to wait. I think there’s a fine line.

Mark Cole:
And I think in that fine line is the essence of your question, which I would tell you that there are often times that I go, man, Mark, why did you listen to that idea when it was not intuition, it was bad pizza. It had nothing to do with anything. Because here’s what I do, Traci oftentimes jump to conclusions and blame it on intuition. When after I live out that conclusion, I realize it was not intuition at all. It was fear. It was scary, it was concern, it was doubt. It wasn’t true intuition. And as a leader, the great.

Mark Cole:
It’s so funny. It’s so funny. Jake, you’ll appreciate this. Jake just asked me this question right before we were transitioning and getting ready to record. And he said, mark, what is your pet peeve as a CEO? And I gave him what I felt like was a great answer. But Jake, I need to do a retake. My pet peeve is when I feel like I have labeled something as intuitive leadership, when really it was just fearful leadership. It’s when I come to a conclusion way too soon, when more information needs to be found and more information needs to be gathered.

Mark Cole:
And when we look at this, this idea of assumptions, I will tell you there have been more times that I want to admit that I operated with assumptions that were incorrect than I operated with intuition that was correct. Now, what does that tell me as I’m teaching myself out loud and all of you are listening to me? Teach myself. I need to slow down and understand the difference between. Between assumptions and intuition. I need to understand the difference between stewarding what could happen from a protective guy to be a watchman on the wall perspective and how many times I stand up and make a snap decision based on fear and based on concern of things I can’t control anyway. And I think a leader that people love to follow is a leader that has sharpened their intuition and resist assumption. That’s what I’m taking away that I’ve got to work on a little bit more.

Traci Morrow:
Well, I think what you are always so good at doing is just being really honest and transparent. But I also think that what people love to follow is an honest and transparent leader. Because it doesn’t mean you’re a perfect leader. It means you’re honest and transparent and they love to follow someone who will say, hey, you know what? I made assumptions about that. And I thought it was. I was using discernment. And I may have jumped the gun a little bit there. I thought I was using intuition.

Traci Morrow:
And that’s one thing that you are so wonderful to do that before your team. And that just that, like, steadies the cart. I think the cart is, like, wobbly and insecure and people want to leave. A leader who never will admit that, never will admit that everyone like what feels unsteady. People go, oh, okay, he sees that. She sees that okay, I’m good with it still. Because nobody cares about a perfect leader because there’s no such thing outside of Jesus. So I mean, that is just to me something worth noting.

Traci Morrow:
If somebody’s listening and being hard on themselves. Hearing Mark say this is something I struggle with. Hearing John say this is something I struggled with. That’s important for us to hear. Okay, so one of the I am still getting some of your people pleasing question. So I’m going to get there. But I wanted to ask because he talked about three feelings that followers always have. If they have a leader that they love and they feel valued, inspired and empowered.

Traci Morrow:
So I’m curious, are there questions that you’ve discussed with John or that you know, that he asks himself, but are there questions that you ask either of yourself or of your team to ask and check in to see how you’re doing here?

Mark Cole:
I love this and could truly camp out here the rest of the time on this area. I think this podcast episode is going to be therapy for Mark. I think that’s what’s getting ready to happen right here. Yes, of course, we all do. At my expense. Let’s just love therapy for Mark right here. And I’m just teasing. I need it actually.

Mark Cole:
But it’s interesting because I will tell you, John Maxwell is the best in the world at making others in his aura, in his presence, in his environment feel valued. I’ve never seen anything like it. In fact, I went through these three. This is where I said I might need some therapy. I went through these. How do you make your people feel valued, Mark? How do you make your team feel inspired? How do you make leaders feel empowered? And I gotta be honest with you, one in three valued and empowered in comparison to John, which is never good to compare yourselves to someone else. But in comparison to the way I have been led by being empowered and the way that I have felt valued and seen millions of other people feel valued by John, I feel a novice. I feel like I have so far to go.

Mark Cole:
I do okay on the inspiration. And I think that’s mostly because I’ve got the red headed fire within me. And so I’m not going to deal with that one as much as I am going to on valued and empowered. And I’ll tell you, I think both of these are disciplines to exercise, not traits to exhibit. Because too often we go, oh man, I don’t know how to value people. And so I’m just not that good. I’m not a people person. For all of you that are going traci you don’t even need to get to the people.

Mark Cole:
People pleasing attributes. Because I could care less about people. They’re obnoxious, to be honest with you. But for most of us, most of us, we really care about valuing people. And I will tell you, I get great hope in watching John get better at it and in hearing John tell me stories of when he was not very good at it, because it gives me great hope that all of us can get better at valuing people. We have to become aware ourselves and we have to become disciplined with ourselves in the idea of valuing people. You have to walk into rooms and you have to be intentional with it. Don’t wait for it to come naturally.

Mark Cole:
You’re naturally selfish. Oftentimes. Therefore, it’s going to be hard to value others if you’re looking. What do I get out of this? What’s my gain? What’s my take? You’re not going to value others if you’re constantly looking. What’s going to be my take from this relationship? You’ve got to discipline yourself. What can I give to this relationship? What can I extend to this individual? And if you’ll change your mindset, your mindset change will change your thinking and your thinking change will change your actions and your actions will change results. And you can become good at valuing people. But it has to start with the determination that I’m going to become better at valuing those around you.

Mark Cole:
I think the same thing is true, Traci, for empowering people. Leaders that are worth their weight and salt want the ball. Give me the ball. Well, how can I keep the ball if I’m empowering somebody else to carry the ball? It’s counterintuitive to leadership. Give me the ball. Give me the responsibility. I’ll take it across the goal post. Yet to empower others, you have to empower others that sometimes going to get tackled, sometimes going to throw a bad ball.

Mark Cole:
They’re going to sometimes get distracted. And you’ve got to learn to stay the course and discipline yourself to empower others. I think that’s why those two. I’m judging myself as not being very good. Now I’m justifying why I’m not very good. I think it’s counterintuitive to leaders to value others because we’re all about ourselves. I think it’s counterintuitive to leaders to empower others because we want to feel the weight of responsibility of having the task.

Traci Morrow:
Now, as somebody who has known you for a number of years, I will say that you are a leader who makes people feel valued. I do feel very valued by you and I. I John said we may forget what a person says, we may forget what a person did, but we will always remember how that leader made us feel. And so I had made a note like, you’re great at this, Mark. So that’s my little note to myself before you even went into your therapy session. But getting to my question now, I would love to hear you share a little bit as a recovering people pleaser speaking to our brand new just coming out and into recovery of people pleasing. How do you have those hard conversations? Because every leader has to have a hard conversation. So in John gives a list of like making sure that a person feels appreciated, valued and seen more than in those tough conversations, being appreciated more than they think think that they should be.

Traci Morrow:
Okay, so, and they he gives them for each of those three on your worksheet sheet. It’s there and hopefully you’ve printed out your worksheet. So my question is then, if you’re just coming out of being a people pleasing person and you have to have a hard conversation, how do you at the same time think back to that first conversation where you had to have a member on your team? It was a difficult conversation. How do you at the same time, for perhaps the first time, have a hard conversation where you also are being mindful of making sure that your team member feels appreciated, valued and seen while also having a difficult word with them as well?

Mark Cole:
Well, I see for people pleaser like I am, I see difficult conversations as a need for training wheels. Remember when you first started riding a bike and you had to have those training wheels because you were not very good, you were very destabilized and very uncertain and didn’t have your balance? That’s absolutely true for me when I first began having difficult conversations because I would find myself leaning too far to the right, I gotta show them and then lean back. Oh, I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. Did I hurt your feelings? Oh my gosh.

Traci Morrow:
Bring them a coffee.

Mark Cole:
Don’t worry about your feelings. Oh my God. I mean, just imagine the first time you or your kid rode the bike and without the training wheels. For me, the training wheels was I took copious notes on myself and then went to my mentor, John Maxwell and said, this is what I said. This is how I felt. And this is how I undid what I said at the very beginning because I felt terrible and I would just show him everything. The second thing that I tried to do and this wasn’t always possible because many difficult conversations should be done one on one. I would take somebody in with me to be my winged person and I’d say, hey, I need you to go in.

Mark Cole:
Don’t need you to say a word, except I want you to watch how I vacillated from both sides of the equator. One saying, I got to be tough, man. John Maxwell’s going to be checking up on me on how tough I am. And then the other side of me going, oh man, I don’t even know if I’m going to be able to sleep tonight, tomorrow night or the next night because I feel terrible in what I said. And I would bring a wing person inside with me and with one assignment to watch how unstable I was. You know the old, maybe a proverb, I can’t remember if it’s a proverb, but it says a double minded person is unstable in all their ways. And I was so unstable when I first started having difficult conversations that I needed a stabilizing force and that became my training wheels. Now again, that’s not always the case because many difficult conversations are by yourself.

Mark Cole:
But I would find for you, what is the thing that’s going to stabilize you from feeling like the worst version of yourself and feeling triumphant that I finally told somebody what they needed to hear. And you go through that. That’s normal. Number one. Two, don’t trust yourself because you’re trying to develop something within you that’s pretty underdeveloped, uncultivated. And three, don’t allow yourself to undo your progress by going back and undoing the difficult things that you had to say. That right there was my biggest challenge. That’s the reason it took 18 months.

Mark Cole:
I’d go in and do it. And then before I could even go talk to John, I had undone everything I had done in the previous conversation by going back and over apologizing. John says it like this, which I agreed. If you put the weight of someone else’s effectiveness on your shoulders, you diminish their ability to step up when they need to step up. You overemphasize your greatness as a leader. You’re not that good, Mark. But thirdly, you put pressure on yourself that does not allow you to develop in this area. And I had to go and say, the success of this conversation is not solely on me, it’s on the person that I’m working with too.

Mark Cole:
Let me illustrate one more second. I know we’re out of town, but let me illustrate. I have, unfortunately or fortunately, I have transitioned a lot of people out of my leadership. A lot. Way too many. My track record would not be the percentages that I would like of keeping great people around me. I will tell you this. There are times that I have nailed it in how it should be done, how it should have been honoring to the person, and it ended bad.

Mark Cole:
I’ve also done a terrible job and it ended good. Now you know the difference of that, Tracy. It’s not me. It’s the fact that people around me help make the success or the failure of a difficult conversation. It doesn’t rest solely on me. And when I gave myself permission to only be a part of the equation rather than the equation, things began to stabilize for me and I become less destabilized in my thinking, less unpredictable in my emotion, and therefore less effective in the results.

Traci Morrow:
I love that you ended on that because to me, the summary of that from John’s advice to you is, number one, it just takes practice. We aren’t going to get it perfect the first time. I think the big takeaway is becoming a leader that people love to follow is going to take practice. It’s going to take somebody, accountability, partner or partners walking alongside of us to help us grow in this area. And remembering what John said to you, not putting the weight of their performance on our shoulders solely, but also remembering that it’s. That it’s their. Their responsibility as well to grow in their area as well. So this, I think, that we have given for them and for us.

Traci Morrow:
I think it’s, it’s. It’s a great reminder to us all to remember, continue to stay, growing, to become not just to be a leader, but to become a leader that people love to follow.

Mark Cole:
Yeah. And, you know, I always like to leave you with more than just content. I want to leave you with an action item. And so I’m going to give you two freebies and I’ll give you one that you’re going to have to invest in yourself. The one that is about investing in yourself goes back to what you were just saying, Tracy, and that is investing in your growth. Many of our podcast family, you’re brand new. You’re just finding us welcome. We’re so glad you’re here.

Mark Cole:
What are you doing to invest in yourself? We have a product that I want to share with you today. It’s called the 15 Laws of Growth. It’s a digital product. It’s typically $400. We’re going to give you 75% off of that. It’s a digital product. You can Consume it at your own pace and it’s the 15 laws of growth and it’s $99. For those of you listening to the podcast, you can go use the code podcast and be able to get that.

Mark Cole:
The other two is just two podcasts that we’ve done in the past that I want to challenge you to go take in as soon as possible because it fits so well with this content. Number one is a podcast we did called How Leaders Lift Others. We’ll put the link in the show notes. Go to your show notes. You’ll be able to get that. You’ll be able to get the bonus resource to fill in the blanks. It is a podcast worth listening to. The other is a podcast a podcast listener named Albert listened to and it’s the foundation of a leader.

Mark Cole:
Albert listened to the podcast the foundation of a Leader that’s in your show notes and this is what Albert said. He said, thank you so much for this insightful lesson. I enjoy these discussions between Mark Cole and Traci as a young leader, a young up becoming leader. Thank you, Albert, who aspires to raise and develop leaders in Africa. This podcast has always challenged me to keep growing. Albert, to you and all of our listeners and viewers in Africa, thank you. Albert goes on and says, God bless Maxwell Leadership and the entire team. We’ll take that blessing.

Mark Cole:
Albert, thank you. And by the way, lead well in Africa because everyone, including Africa, deserves to be led well.