Maxwell Leadership Podcast: Leaders Go First

Mark Cole:

Hey everyone. Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Podcast. Hey, if you can’t hear it, you should see it because if you can know anything about me, John has taught me to anticipate things, and today I’m anticipating this podcast. Now, yes, we’re the podcast that adds value to leaders who multiply value to others. But today we’re even more than that because in this special episode, we listen. We listen to you, our listeners, our viewers, and you requested after hearing from Jeff Henderson last month, you asked for more episodes like that. So we have back in the studio with us today, another one of our Maxwell Leadership thought leaders, and they are going to join with you and learn and grow. Today, we have in studio, one of my very dear friends, somebody that’s worked alongside John Maxwell longer than me, we have Tim Elmore in the studio to talk to you about you got to go first. You’re going to love this. He’s got an analogy that will stick as soon as you hear it.

Now, here’s the great thing. I tell you all the time, you need to go to YouTube, you need to view this by YouTube. Join us on YouTube. Today, you snooze and lose if you don’t go to YouTube because Tim brought a PowerPoint deck and Jake has created it so that it’s going to create an online experience for you at YouTube. Now, all of our listeners, thousands and thousands and tens and tens of thousands of you, you’re still going to get the same quality podcast. But if you want to see it by YouTube, go to maxwellpodcast.com/youtube. Also, if you would like to download the bonus resource for this episode, which is a free fill in the blank PDF that accompanies Tim’s lesson, just visit maxwellpodcast.com/gofirst and click the bonus resource button.

Now, if you’re listening by YouTube, watching by YouTube, get ready. If you’re listening, grab a pen, grab a paper. Here is Tim Elmore.

Tim Elmore:

I’m pretty excited to talk to you all today about going first as a leader. What I’ve done is I’ve selected a metaphor. I actually call it a habitude. Some of you already know this. Habitudes are images that form leadership habits and attitudes. The one I’ve chosen today is one of my newest and it’s found in A New Kind of Diversity book. But I think you’re going to love it because it just is playing out right now before my eyes almost everywhere I go. I call this image guard dogs or guide dogs. Now, I know it’s kind of cheesy, but think with me for a minute. We have given canines many jobs over the years. Would you agree? I mean, service jobs are everywhere. You see service dogs in airports and wherever you go, but two of the most common jobs we’ve given dogs are the guard dog and the guide dog, but their jobs are fundamentally different.

Think with me. The guard dog’s job is to protect, right? They’re usually in some fenced in area and they’re sniffing out trouble there and growling at intruders and barking at anything that might pop up. They’re just there to protect. The guide dog’s job is to partner. In fact, I’ll never forget a few years ago speaking in Virginia, and the man that spoke before me on the docket that day was completely blind. Fortunately for him and all of us, he had a guide dog named Scout. Scout was rightfully named. Scout walked him up to the platform when it was his turn, walked him up the stairs, walked him across the stage, stopped right at the podium, and this speaker grabbed the podium and gave his speech. Scott must have known the last phrase of the speech because he stood up at the last phrase, guided the man across the stage, back down the steps and over to a seat, and both sat down.

And I thought to myself when they sat down, “What a great leader.” And I wasn’t talking about the human being, I was talking about the dog. Think with me. While the guard dog is always protecting, growling, barking, sniffing out trouble, the guide dog shop is to stay close, to go first, take the first step, to be vulnerable, to initiate on behalf of others. So he exists to partner. The reason I keep underscoring that is I believe we default to one of these two as leaders. You see, especially in times of trouble, but almost every day of our lives, we naturally default to guard dog. We are self-protecting, we are guarding our assets, guarding our funding, guarding our bottom line. You know what I’m talking about. It’s just what we do as humans. So of these two canine jobs, the protecting and the partnering, we tend to protect more often than we partner. It’s just what we’re prone to do.

So let me read something I’ve written down that I think will summarize this for you and illustrate why the science behind this thing is so powerful. So when we are in groups or on teams, our brain lights up differently depending on the social cues we exchange with others. The paradox is belonging actually works from the outside in. When vulnerability cues are sent, we move from guard dog to guide dog. Our brains light up socially when steady diets of cues are sent. We are close, we are safe, we share a future. Now you see, smart leaders get into anxious times and they realize, while I want to protect all my assets right now, what my people need is a guide dog, not a guard dog. They need me to tip my hand, perhaps to get vulnerable, perhaps to be transparent and be the first one to set that cue. But folks, it’s a conscious decision. Here’s why.

I mentioned our brain just a minute ago. I am not a neuroscientist. You’ll never mistake me for a neuroscientist, but what I understand about our amygdala in our brain, it’s been a game changer for me as a leader. You see, the amygdala is part of our brain. It’s a small membrane. It’s like a large almond. In fact, the Latin word for amygdala is almond. So the amygdala is constantly scanning the landscape, looking for cues from others all the time, and it lights up when seeing the need to protect. It’s the fight, flight, or freeze. You’ve all heard that, haven’t you? Okay, fight or flight or get out of there.

All right. Now, watch this. It lights up in a different way. When safety cues are sent from leaders or from others. Someone cares, understands and empathizes. It leans in to partner. Now, what I’m saying is your people all around you, if you’re a leader, they’re going to be looking for cues from you. They will be no more transparent than you are on that team or in that group. And if you want honesty and trust and transparency, you got to go first.

Let me illustrate this in a brilliant way. Some of you know the name Alison Wood Brooks. She’s at Harvard Business Review and publishes some great stuff from time to time. She conducted an experiment where she asked more than 400 people to respond to two scenarios and to see the difference in their responses. I want you listeners right now to listen to these two scenarios and see what you would do in each of these scenarios. Okay?

So here’s scenario number one. Imagine this. You’re at a train station. It’s raining a stranger approaches you to ask, “Can I borrow your cell phone?” Scenario two, you’re at a train station, it’s raining a stranger approaches and says, “I’m so sorry about this rain. Can I borrow your cell phone?” Now, there was only one sentence difference. Did you catch that? But when Alison and her team asked the audience, her group of respondents, would there be any change in how people would respond? Almost everybody said there’d be no difference in either one. In other words, when a stranger asked for your cell phone, you’re not going to give the stranger your cell phone. And they were wrong. When they actually conducted the experiment, get this, 422% more people said yes to giving a stranger the cell phone on the second scenario, meaning that tiny hint of, “I’m so sorry about this rain,” gave a signal of humanity. I care about you. I’m about to ask him for something, but I care about you.

We’re humans before we’re Xs or Os on a chart. So what I’m suggesting to you real quick is this. The key to this is vulnerability. Are you able and willing to be vulnerable with your team? There’s an assignment I gave myself this year. When I speak in a meeting, I want to speak as if I believe I’m right. I want to have some conviction, but I want to listen as if I believe I’m wrong. And that has been a game changer. Few years ago, I met Scott Drew. If you’re a college basketball fan, you know the name Scott Drew. Scott Drew is the Baylor University men’s basketball coach. And in 2021, he led the Baylor Men to a national championship. First one Baylor had ever won. Scott brilliantly modeled this principle that year. You see, when the basketball season started, Scott decided instead of just jumping into practice, he did some really fun crazy activities with his men’s team.

Now, basketball players are studs, right? They’re not only males, they’re athletes, okay? So he did some team building games, some fun games, dunking contest, pie making activities. It was just kind of crazy. At the end of his few days together just getting acquainted and bonding, Coach Drew sat down with his men and he said, “Can I ask you a strange question? And I want to hear from every one of you. What are you most afraid of right now?” Well, all of them were stunned in silence because they thought, what the heck are you asking me that question for? I’m a guy, whatever.

But he said, “No, no, no. I want you to answer. What are you most afraid of?” And when they were quiet for another moment, he said, “Let me lead off.” And it was at that moment that Coach Drew looked at his men in the eye and said, “Do you know what I was afraid of? I was afraid you were going to leave me. I was afraid someone was going to persuade you from playing on this team. I’m no Coach Kay at Duke basketball. I’m no legendary coach. I’m Scott Drew, and I was just afraid that you would leave me.”

Well, this just caused every one of them to open up. They not only said, “Coach, I’m not leaving you.” They went on to win a championship. He would say it was the bonding, not just the talent that won that championship. Can I say that again? It was the bonding, not just the talent that won the championship. For years, I’ve enjoyed the privilege of partnering with sports teams like Baylor basketball, but the Kansas City Royals have been just great, great friends along the last 10, 12 years. And I remember one particular year I was with all the minor league players sharing some habits, and then I talked to all the managers and coaches.

Vance Wilson was the AAA coach that year. And he came up to me and he said, “Tim, I need to tell you what happened this year when we were discussing these habitudes.” I said, “Well, tell me.” He said, “Well, I was leading a habit discussion one week in our clubhouse,” and he said, “My third baseman, Mike, was just staring at the floor like he wasn’t paying attention.” He said, “I finished up. And I said, ‘All right, let’s go take BP. Let’s take batting practice.’ Everybody runs out into the field except for Mike, this third baseman. And when Mike finally got up, he walked over to me and he said, ‘Coach, would you mind if I led the lesson next week?’ He said, ‘No, I didn’t think you were paying attention. Of course. Lead the lesson.'”

The next week when Mike stepped up, he looked at his fellow players and he kind of stumbled over his words because he’s a third baseman. He’s not a public speaker. But he finally said, “Do you all know what I got in my back pocket?” Well, nobody answered. They said, “Chewing tobacco, whatever.” And he reached his back pocket and he pulled out a rope. It was a noose. Mike was going to hang himself that next weekend. He said, “The reason I have this is I was going to kill myself.” He said, “I broke up with my girlfriend. I’m in a hitting slump right now. I’m not going to make the majors. My parents are mad at me. I just didn’t see a reason to go on.” But then he looked at his fellow teammates and he said, “But I realized last week having this discussion, you guys are my family. This team, you’re my family.”

Well, you can imagine every one of those other 25 guys just opened up and they’re all bonding now because somebody led the way. Somebody was a guide dog, not a guard dog. And Vance said, “I got to be honest with you. We won the national championship. We won the league championship.” Now, I am not promising you win championships when you become guide dog, although you better your chances.

So one last bit before I wrap up, and I want to talk to Mark Cole about how we’re applying this at Maxwell Leadership, but Jay Van Bavel, social neuroscience neuroscientist at NYU said this, and I think it’s brilliant. The moment you’re part of a group, the amygdala tunes in to who’s in that group and starts intensely tracking them. These people were strangers before. Now they’re important to you. It’s such a powerful switch, a total reconfiguration of the entire motivational decision making system, the whole dynamic changes. So your action steps, can I give them to you? You must go first. I must go first. Don’t wait for someone else to be vulnerable first. Number two, I must model transparency. I got to open up my heart just a little bit and be that guide dog for those that may not be able to see as clearly as I see. I must be vulnerable. That’s what I’ve been talking about this whole time. And then lastly, I must trust.

Mark, I’m going to stop there and kind of turn it back over to you to dialogue about this.

Mark Cole:

Yeah. Every time I sit down with you, I just become better at connecting with all types, all generation types, just the way that leaders look. When you give these images, and we’re going to talk more about guard dog, guide dog in just a moment and how we’re applying it here, but Tim, you have a unique gift and you’ve picked up on that podcast family. This unique gift to take images that apply to all ages and begin to drive leadership behavior into that. In fact, before we dialogue, let me just tell all of you that maybe this is the first time you’ve ever heard the name Tim Elmore. There’s a couple of ways that you can follow Tim right now. One is pick up his book, A New Kind of Diversity. This is talking about how in the workplace we now have five generations. Is that right?

Tim Elmore:

That’s right.

Mark Cole:

Five generations that we as leaders are trying to lead at the same time. And all five do not think the same.

Tim Elmore:

That is true.

Mark Cole:

So Tim, it is an incredible practical guide and yet very edifying inspiring guide of how to mobilize all these different diverse thinking from a generational perspective and get one functioning team to do great things. We’ll put this in the show note. You can pick this book up. We’ll give you 15% discount on that. The other thing, Tim travels all over the place. In fact, I’m glad you’re in Atlanta and able to talk now. Tim travels speaking to businesses, nonprofits, sports teams, sports organizations, and if you want more information on that, we’ll put in the show notes how you can book Tim. If you don’t want to go to the show notes, you can go to maxwellleadership.com, go to our speakers, Tim’s right there. We’ll help you get Tim into your area.

But Tim, I sit here and I went, what happens if I see both of me in those? Because I guess leaders do go through sometimes like that.

Tim Elmore:

No doubt. In fact, I would say on any given day, I might be both. At 10:00 AM, I’m a guide dog at 3:00 PM, I’m a guard dog. And it’s the environment, it’s the circumstance. I even think about my little dog, Sadie. She’s a guide dog as a puppy. She turned it into a guard dog. So it happens, and I think it’s part of us just responding to the feeling threatened or feeling things are scarce or abundant. So it happens every day. Yeah.

Mark Cole:

Yeah. Well, I’m looking forward to just getting into it, but I think this piece on vulnerability and how each of us can lead our team better, something that the world needs to hear.

Tim Elmore:

Well, Mark, if you don’t mind, I want to toss some questions to you about this because I feel as though you gave us a clinic about this very thing. You didn’t call it guard dog or guide dog, but it’s really what you were. So do you mind disclosing a little bit?

Mark Cole:

Yeah.

Tim Elmore:

You recently saw this play out. You did a listening tour. Talk about that.

Mark Cole:

Well, so I’m learning, and our podcast family knows this, Tim, you know this. All God’s children knows this right now. I’m in a new area of leadership. I’ve worked for dynamic visionaries like yourself, like John Maxwell and I’ve implemented someone else’s vision, all of my leadership, and now it’s my task. It’s my responsibility. It’s my privilege to be able to envision the future and then motivate people around this vision that I have. I learned how to motivate people around somebody else’s vision, but how do I motivate them around mine? And I got to tell you, I started out in 2020, 2021. I started out, I’m the guard dog. I protected this. I got this. This is mine. Get in line. And just really driving.

Something really interesting happened to me last August, September. I began to realize that the organization had developed a culture that I was not pleased with, and I couldn’t blame it on anybody else anymore. It was my culture. It wasn’t somebody else’s. It wasn’t because of somebody else’s decisions. It was my decisions. I felt really prompted to go and do a listening tour. You’ve heard fireside chats. You’ve heard town hall meetings. We called ours family rooms. We just went and put 10 to 15 people. About 18 times I went and just did a listening tour to say, “Hey, tell me what it’s like to be on the other side of me.” And I will tell you, Tim, coming out of that, I felt a passion to be more of a guide to help us get where from where we all determined we didn’t want to be to where we ultimately envisioned. Rather than coming out there and going, “Okay, let’s go.” And that vulnerability that we had is easier to continue. That was a very vulnerable moment.

Tim Elmore:

It was. Yeah. I was there.

Mark Cole:

But it’s been a very vulnerable moment to lead from that too. And we have good days. We have some days that’s not so good.

Tim Elmore:

Yeah. Interesting. So I would like to, if you don’t mind, get inside yourself for leaders who are listening. What drove you to be vulnerable? You obviously shifted gears a bit from, “Everything’s great,” to, “Ooh, it may not be great.” And when you tip your hand, you run the risk, don’t you, of, “What if they don’t respect me anymore? Now I’m telling them I’m a loser or I don’t have all this right.” But you did it anyway and I think it won us over. Why?

Mark Cole:

And I’d be interested in what you say about this too, but I’ve watched John Maxwell lead from a position of security. He’s very doubt comfortable in his own skin. I bet you are too. And again, if there’s something that strikes a chord here, certainly speak back to me on how a leader gets comfortable in his own skin or in her own skin. For me, I began to realize, I put all this expectation on me that I’ve got to know how to be a visionary leader. Well, sitting in those family rooms, number one, I just got frustrated with myself. Then I got very humble, and then I got very vulnerable. So I would tell you that I think vulnerability starts with humility.

Tim Elmore:

Yeah, I do too.

Mark Cole:

When we realize, hey, it’s okay to not have all the answers. It’s okay that I can admit that this is the first time I’ve ever had to lead like this. And I will tell you on the days that I feel like getting back into that guard dog mentality, I go back to that level of humility, Tim, to go, “I cannot believe what I get to do on a daily basis.” I’m sitting here with you right now. There will be a couple hundred thousand people that’ll listen to this podcast right here, and we’re just talking to women and men about how to make sure. Just a great little pictorial perspective that we will be able to draw from. Are you wanting to be a guard dog? You want to be a guide dog? So I would come back and say, I think humility is what drives that vulnerability. And then I think the other thing is the reward that you get.

Tim Elmore:

Yes.

Mark Cole:

Do you know how many people, Tim, came to me and said, “I respect you more as my leader right now than I did the last 20 years.” For having a family room? No. From being vulnerable. From being approachable. Too many times, there is a success gap between leaders and people that want to be… The success gap is a mirage.

Tim Elmore:

Yeah, I agree.

Mark Cole:

It’s not accurate because leaders struggle and have difficulty and have failures as well.

Tim Elmore:

No, I think you’re right. In fact, I would say I think everybody knows when you don’t have the answer to pretend we do, they go, “Oh no, you’re making it worse, Bob.” Pretend is taken from the word pretense. We’re faking it. And I think when we get real, they go, “Oh, good. We all knew. Thank you for being open.” And Mark, I’m telling you, we all loved you more. We leaned in more. It was a good thing.

Mark Cole:

Yeah. I felt that.

Tim Elmore:

So I want to ask you more of a theoretical question. I think people listening would be asking this question, why do you think leaders struggle with this?

Mark Cole:

So it’s a good question, and again, bounce back and forth with me on this, because you’ve worked with a lot of leaders, been around John a long time as well. I think that leaders struggle because there’s something innate in us, a high degree of responsibility perhaps. That it’s the ownership principle. If it’s meant to be, it’s up to me. It’s mine to accomplish. So when we come and we have to communicate we don’t have all the answers, we somehow feel like a derelict of our leadership respons responsibility.

Tim Elmore:

Yeah. That makes sense.

Mark Cole:

We feel like that to say, “I don’t know.” It’s not a sign of weakness. It’s a sign of incorrect positioning. I’m not supposed to be the leader if I don’t know. I’m not supposed to be the one here. So I think it’s really hard for leaders. It’s really easy to pick on the egotistical ones, right? The guys that think they know everything and they act all this and you go, “Your cocky is the reason you can’t be vulnerable.” That’s not always the truth. In fact, that’s too broad of a characterization. There is some great leaders that are vulnerable and humble at the heart that still can’t say, “I don’t know and I messed up.” Because we feel like that we’re then saying, you can’t have confidence in a leader that doesn’t know.

Tim Elmore:

Yeah. That’s well put. In fact, I would say when we practice what you just preached, people tend to lean in. They go, “I want to help you get the answer then if you don’t know it because you’ve just won me over at the heart level.” I mean, I think about Bob Iger who had to do this when he first took over in 2006 at Disney and others. It’s such a brilliant but counterintuitive thing to leadership because we’re supposed to have the answers. You know what went through my mind as you were talking? It’s not the leader’s job to make all the decisions. It’s the leader’s job to make sure good decisions are made in that way, even if it’s made by a [inaudible 00:24:36] or someone else. And that’s what I think you’ve done so well.

Mark Cole:

Yeah. It’s interesting because what I love to do, Tim and I learned this from people like you and from John Maxwell. What I love to do is I love to come into a meeting and say, “What do I need to know?” When I come into a meeting saying, “What do I need to know?” Rather than, “Let me tell you what I already know.” I usually get a lot more information that I didn’t know. When I come in, my first question is, “What do I need to know?” And then I love to ask the question, “If you were me, what decision would you make right here?” I get that kind of perspective. Then it’s time, in my opinion, for the leader to issue the task, the reason you’re the leader. Set the direction.

Tim Elmore:

That’s right.

Mark Cole:

But I always follow up with this right here, Tim, and I think this is a kicker. When I set that direction, I’ve listened, “What do I need to know? What would you do if you were me?” I’ve listened. Now I set the direction. And then I always follow up with his final question. “What am I missing?”

Tim Elmore:

Yeah, good.

Mark Cole:

And when I set that direction and I ask, “What am I missing?” Everybody feels like two things. One, he’s approachable. Number two, they feel like we’ve made that decision together. I told him what he was missing, and off we go.

Tim Elmore:

I love it. I think that’s so spot on leadership-wise and psychologically. All right. One last question.

Mark Cole:

Okay.

Tim Elmore:

What steps did you take internally or what steps led you to practice this that others could perhaps emulate?

Mark Cole:

Well, I think if you want to go and you find yourself in this guard dog mentality, and I don’t think you’re saying, and I certainly wouldn’t want to say that there’s not times that we need to be that guard dog.

Tim Elmore:

Yeah, that’s true.

Mark Cole:

We need to protect. There is a moment when protection is the right move, but most of the time we should be operating in the guide dog mentality. I think, Tim, again, something that I watch you do, I think getting an inner circle, some ones that can give you a perspective of, “Whoa, mark, you’re straining at the leash a little bit right here, Mr. Guard Dog.” I think having an inner circle that can really speak into you is a very practical step that I have. And I give them this picture. “Hey guys. Guard dog, guide dog. Yeah. What am I being right here?” Because you’ve given us… Podcast listeners, especially those of you on YouTube, you saw what Tim’s talking about here. So there is an inner circle responsibility.

I’ll tell you the second thing. I really work hard at a humility meter. How am I feeling in this moment as it relates to overconfident or over humble? I think either one will get you into a place. An over humble leader is hard to follow because you’re trying to go, “Do you have a direction or going anywhere?”

Tim Elmore:

That’s right.

Mark Cole:

So I think it’s really paying attention to where I am with that kind of indication on that. And then finally, what I would tell you to do, you have a resource that I think really helps with this called Habitudes. You can find that at growingleaders.com. Tim, you have a lot of pictures like this. In fact, we’re going to have you back and get you to do another.

Tim Elmore:

Okay. That’d be fine.

Mark Cole:

That’d be okay? I really do want to do that this year. But it is getting myself in, and here’s why I do that. So I do that for personal consumption. Go find a habitude. It’ll help you. But I do that so I can establish common language in the organization. So now here’s what we’ve done. You mentioned the fireside chats that we call family rooms. We now know, “Hey, go back to the family room.” We’ve now created common points.

Tim Elmore:

It’s a reference point.

Mark Cole:

It’s a reference point. What you’ve done with the picture today is you’ve shown us, we can put a reference point, and people in the room with you and the leadership room has now common language to say, “This is how I’m leading. This is how I should be leading.”

Tim Elmore:

I love it.

Mark Cole:

Hey, I’m going to tell you again, for those of you watching, those of you listening, I know you’ve enjoyed Tim. I certainly have. I sit here, just took notes, notes, notes. Go first, model transparency, be vulnerable, always trust. That practical way that you can make sure that you’re staying in the guide dog perspective. Hey, for those of you that, again, you want to know more about Tim, we put all this in the show notes, of course. But his book, A New Kind of Diversity, it’s a must read for those of us that are leading in today’s reality of different generations needing to come together for the common good of an organization or a cause. Tim speaks all over the world and speaks often. But if you’d like for him to come to your organization, again in the show notes, go to maxwellleadership.com. Look at our speakers. Tim’s right there.

Hey, I love always just ending with a comment from one of our LI listeners, and today it’s a listener from Kyrgyzstan that says, “This is Jerry,” and I love what he says. And Jerry, by the way, I agree with you that get intentional with your growth, which is a podcast that we did. It’s in your show notes. It will absolutely impact you. Jerry said, “Hey, I’m listening. And I’m re-energized. I took some useful notes of action to grow, and specifically it gave me an idea about talking personal growth decisions with my son.” Now here’s the fun part. “My son’s birthday is on January the 26th, and this is going to be exciting to sit down with my son.” The best birthday gift you could have given your son, Jerry, was to sit down and talk about his personal growth. I know the birthday was the 26th of January. I get it. But happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday dear Jerry’s son. Happy birthday to you.

Hey, to all of our podcast listeners. Thank you. You know why we do what we do? We do this because whether it’s Kyrgyzstan, which I’ll say the name wrong, whether it’s Georgia, whether it’s United States, no matter where you’re listening from, everybody in your area wants to see powerful positive change. You know why? Everyone deserves to be led well.