Maxwell Leadership Podcast: Who to Invite to Your Leadership Table

Mark Cole:

Hey, welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Podcast. This is the podcast that adds value to leaders who multiply value to others. My name is Mark Cole, and tomorrow here in the United States is my favorite holiday, Thanksgiving. This is a holiday where those closest to us gather together and reflect on the things that we’re grateful for. I trust whether you’re in the United States or Canada, who celebrated it a month ago, wherever you are around the world and listening to this podcast, I challenge you to join all of us tomorrow, bring some people around and discuss the things that you’re grateful for in your life, in your relationships. So today, as we prepare to bring people around the dinner table, we thought we’d let John Maxwell share ten types of people that you need to be at your table. Your leadership table. After John’s lesson, my cohost Chris Goede and I will share with you some practical ways that you can apply this lesson to your life and to your leadership.

If you would like to download the bonus resource for this episode, or if you want to watch this episode on YouTube, MaxwellLeadership.com/Table and you will then be at the podcast table. Now here is John Maxwell.

John Maxwell:

The potential for change in your organization increases with participation. What you want to do is you want to involve as many people as you possibly can in the change process. Successful people, they know how to get shared thinking in their arena. In other words, they not only have their thinking, but they know how to bring people around and say, what do you think about this? And they know how to bring people to a table to get good shared thinking. And very simple, it works this way. How do you get a great idea? A great idea just doesn’t become a great idea. A great idea is a compounding effect of a lot of good ideas. In other words, you got a good idea.

I got a good idea. Joe’s got a good idea. Bob’s got a good idea. Jim’s got a good idea. Okay, it’s out of the getting a lot of good ideas on the table that you get a great idea. Great ideas aren’t born great ideas. Great ideas are offspring of good ideas. So the value of understanding shared thinking is that the more people you bring into a room and get around the table, the higher your ods of getting great ideas.

And so therefore, I do this exercise all the time. There’s never a week goes by that I don’t put people around the table depending on what I’m trying to accomplish to get their thinking, get their ideas on the table, because what you’re not wanting is you’re not wanting just to open up the door and say, okay, what do you all think? Because most people don’t think so. First of all, you don’t want to say, okay, let’s everybody tell us what you think. 90% of the people don’t think at all. 90% of the people just look for a line that’s moving in and get in it. I mean, they really do. They just, oh, lines moving and then they’re in the line. They say, I hope there’s a water fountain at the end.

You know what I’m saying? I’d like to have a drink sometime. Okay. Okay. So what I’m talking about is don’t just say, okay, everybody tell me your thoughts. Nothing’s worse than getting one of those meetings. I’ve been in those, haven’t you been? Those meeting where you have no thinkers in the room and you sit there and you say, dear God, rescue me from this mundane thinking that’s going on. Hello. Hello.

Are they ever going to strike oil? They can’t even spell the word. They’re not going to get oil. Okay, so your goal is not to get a lot of people’s thoughts because most people’s thoughts are worthless. Okay, so how do you know what kind of a person to bring around the table? And when I wrote the chapter on shared thinking and thinking for a change, I spent a whole half day asking myself the question, what kind of a person do I get around my table when I want to have good shared thinking? That’s going to give me a lot of good thoughts, which is going to result into a great thought. And I’m going to give you ten things to look at in people’s life when you ask the question, who should be around the table? You readY? Number one, people whose greatest desire is the success of the idea. You don’t want people around the table who want to see the idea fail. Are you with me? So you got to have people around the table that will covet and nurture the success of the idea. Number two, people who can compound another person’s thought.

In other words, a kind of person that can hear Bob say something and then all of a sudden John says, well, you know, Bob’s a great thought. And if we did this, now, that’s compounding Bob’s thought. You want to bring people around the table that can take somebody else’s thought and play off of it and tweak it and make it better. Number three, people who emotionally can handle the changes of conversation because if you get a bunch of creative people in a room and you’re going to get ideas, you’re going to go left and right and up and down, and it’s an emotional roller coaster, isn’t that right? And all of a sudden you get on a roll and there are times when it would be nice to see a roll. You know what I’m saying? Okay. Number four, people who appreciate strengths in others where they are weak. In other words, people who can complement one another. Where you’ve got one person that’s a focused thinker and you got another person that’s a creative thinker, and they’re going to be able to appreciate and complement the weaknesses of the other.

Number five, people who recognize their place of value at the table. They know why they’re there. Number six, people who place what is best for them. Oh my, this is huge. People who place what is best for them below what is best for the team. Number seven, people who can bring out the best thinking of those around them. In other words, people that when somebody comes up with a great thought, they can probe a little, say, come on, go a little bit deeper here, talk to me a little bit more. Give me some more out of this.

And they can bring the best thinking. Hey, aren’t there some people who can bring the best thinking out of you? Number eight, people who possess maturitY, experience and success in the issue discussed. And I want all three. I want maturity, experience and success. And I want all three. I don’t want maturity without success. I don’t want experience without success. But I certainly don’t want success without maturity.

I look for those three things. And number nine, people who take ownership and responsibility for the decisions that are made. They have the ability to come to the table. And after there is a shared concept and idea or thought that evolves around it, they can take ownership of it. And number ten, people who can leave the table with a we attitude and not a me attitude. Ten types of people that you want to have around the table in shared thinking.

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Mark Cole:

Hey, welcome back, everyone. Again, on behalf of Chris, who’s with me today in studio, Jake Ryan, our entire team, John Maxwell. Happy Thanksgiving. And if you’re listening to this, weeks, months after Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving. It’s never a bad day to slow down and to be thankful, to express gratitude. And so in light of that, our team put together this lesson that I hope you’ve enjoyed. And Chris, I do want to talk about the leadership table, but let me talk about this concept of tables before we get in, because we do believe true transformation happens around tables.

I believe that tomorrow in your family, what can be dysfunction? And all families have them except Chris Goede’s.

Chris Goede:

No.

Mark Cole:

Whether it’s dysfunction, all tables can get better with good conversation and transformation can happen. We have transformation tables in our nonprofit that takes values and begins to incentivize or challenge people, really invite them into a values conversation. And we literally, over the last ten years, we’ve had millions of tables with 5678 people around it. And we can tell you, I’ve got the stats and the stories to prove it. We can tell you about transformation happening. I know tomorrow, again, it’ll happen every single time. Tomorrow I will leave at the evening full, of course, in my stomach. We eat way too much in America on Thanksgiving, but I will leave full in my soul because we have some traditions about expressing gratitude at the coal household.

I can’t wait. Transformation of my attitude will happen around the Thanksgiving table. But Chris, today our topic is transformation. That will happen if you have the right leadership table, if you have the right people at your table. And you and I have been in John’s organization for a very, very long time. In fact, it’s starting to get painful to tell.

Chris Goede:

It really is. Let’s not tell him how many years.

Mark Cole:

Yeah, but you know what? I’ve seen tables that really functioned well together. I’ve seen leadership tables that didn’t function well together. I’ve seen tables where we had the wrong leaders around the table, and I’ve had those moments that we had the right leaders around the table. This subject matter today matters to those of us that want to lead something bigger than us. Here’s the deal. If you want to lead something that you can handle, the table doesn’t matter that much. If you want to chase a dream that only you are needed to accomplish, the table may not matter to you. But if you want to accomplish something bigger than you.

If your dream is greater than you, your table matters. In fact, I would say your table may matter more than you matter. And so let’s talk about leadership table.

Chris Goede:

I love this. And I remember John years and years ago when he began thinking about this transformation, would often say, it happens in circles, not rows. That was kind of where you and John were originally. And I always have that image in my mind around teams, around leadership teams, because we do want the conversation. We do want thinking. We want people to challenge the ideas. John’s probably one of the best thinkers that you and I have ever met. And he’ll walk into a room and he’s, no, no, best idea wins.

Let’s build upon what we’re doing here. And so I want to dive in and just talk a little bit about thinking from your perspective as a leader, as a thinker, how you’ve developed that skill. Let me stop right there. I use the word skill. Is this a skill that can be developed? The reason I ask that question is this. I know early on in my career, I’d go, I’m just not that creative. I’m not that innovative. Like, I’m more of a logical, kind of operational mindset.

I was struggled with that. So we may have listeners or viewers that are joining us that go, that’s great. I just don’t do a really good job of thinking. Whether it’s a critical thinker, abstract thinker, there’s all kinds of different types of thinkers. Do you think this is a skill that can be developed? And if so, talk a little bit about the context behind your think.

Mark Cole:

I think let’s talk a little bit about the skill, Chris, because the skill that John’s talking about here a lot is shared thinking, and then we talk a lot about creativity. Here’s what I believe about creativity. I don’t believe I’m as creative as the next person, but you get me in my sweet spot. You get me in relationship things, difficult, challenging things, and, man, my creativity goes off the charts. So, number one, I believe we are much more prone to creativity in our strength zone than in our non strength zone. That’s certainly true for me. Maybe somebody out there is creative about something they’re not very passionate about or something that’s not in their strength zone. But I think for the most part, we are more prone to creativity in areas of strength, in areas of passion.

Chris Goede:

Makes sense.

Mark Cole:

Now, I do believe that the arrival or the conclusion of creative thinking can absolutely be developed if you are willing to look beyond yourself. And that is absolutely the ticket. There are things that I will never be creative in my thinking about, but I can develop creative thinking in that area by surrounding myself with collective thinking.

Chris Goede:

That’s good.

Mark Cole:

So I do absolutely believe that creative thinking and shared thinking can be cultivated and developed. But oftentimes it is developed around who’s on your table or who’s on your team. Oftentimes it is developed by who’s on your team or who’s around your table. And if you can get over yourself, as John likes to talk about, and realize that you are not the answer to all things, then your creativity can go off the chart because your team around you will take you off the chart.

Chris Goede:

I love that you said that because that’s what I was thinking. I was like, for me, one of the biggest things was being okay with the thought or the idea being not good. Right? Or being like, no, we’ll move on to another one. Then your ego takes a little bit of a hit, but you’re like, no, that’s not the process.

Mark Cole:

Right.

Chris Goede:

We’re sharing thoughts that are going to continue to up level one another. And I think John mentioned even something to the fact of probably over 90% of the ideas are going to be worthless, but there’s going to be an idea in there, there’s going to be a thought, a 10% that’s going to stick, and then the team’s going to add on. And 90% of the add ons might be worthless, but then there’s going to be one. And we’re going to continue to build this shared thinking that’s going to raise the level of what that team, what that leadership table, what that family table, community table is going to achieve.

Mark Cole:

Can I say one more?

Chris Goede:

Absolutely, yeah, go ahead.

Mark Cole:

I think another key critical thing is to call a win a win and a loss a loss as it relates to shared thinking or creative thinking. I’ve watched John walk out of a hundred rooms, and John loves best idea win. He absolutely loves it. And he is most of the time the best thinker in the room.

Chris Goede:

No doubt.

Mark Cole:

He loves collective thinking, shared thinking. You know what? John also loves calling it what it is. And we’ve walked out of so many rooms that he went, well, that was a waste of time. Missed that one. And he moves on.

Chris Goede:

Yeah.

Mark Cole:

And I go, boy, when I waste your time, I feel like the world is coming to an end. A boulder’s on my head. I feel like all these things, John never apologizes or never feels a sense of more than two minutes worth of shoot, that stinks on shared thinking. And here’s why. That allows him to come back at it again. If we put our win loss ratio up against whether we should do shared thinking or not, we wouldn’t. Because most of the time you don’t get the best idea wins in an environment. It comes after something we’re going to talk about, layered thinking.

And so I want everybody to understand if your win loss ratio is driving whether you’re doing creative thinking, you’re not doing enough creative thinking. But if you are comfortable to call it what it is and go, well, that was a waste of time, but come right back and do it again. But don’t be afraid to call it a waste of time because why was it a waste of time? Had the wrong people in the room, wrong people at the table? We should have never even been thinking about that. It’s too premature, whatever the reason is. But if you don’t reconcile, that was a terrible meeting, you’ll never learn from it so that you can move to the next thing. Which brings me to the book we want to highlight today. Everyone communicates. Few connect.

Oftentimes when people get something communicated, they think that was a win, when really you did no connection. If you’re not connecting with your shared thinking people, you need to stop doing that meeting, call it a loss, and move on to the next time you do it.

Chris Goede:

I love how he quickly moves past that. Here’s the thing. There’s probably even something outside of what do we learn in that meeting that will then be the foundation for that next meeting.

Mark Cole:

That’s right.

Chris Goede:

And then it just continues to build off. And you mentioned just a minute ago, so let’s stop and let’s talk a little bit about this, this layered thinking that this phrase that John kind of has developed and worked through where we build off of certain things. I know I’ve heard him say, hey, that first layer is pretty simplistic. That’s great. Some of us might have called it a failure, others might not in that meeting. But then the second layer is deeper and it’s on top of, and it’s more complex. Talk about this principle of layered thinking and how you and John go about using that in certain meetings.

Mark Cole:

Yeah. John’s one of the best at taking something and simplifying it so the most amount of people can get something from the thought. He’s one of the best in the world at taking an idea that is significant, that is deep, that is meaningful, and putting it out there and everybody going, wow, that’s good. And some people are applying it to an entry level first opportunity out. Some people are applying it to a school age kid that is just trying to make it through studies. And then somebody that’s running a $50 billion company will take that same thought and build it. That’s not by accident. That’s because John takes a concept and he stays with it until there is depth for people to go for days, and there is simplicity for people to take it in a moment.

And I’m just telling you and us, me and you, Chris, who communicate on these podcasts and others, the best thinking is layered thinking. Now, I like strategic thinking. I like collective thinking. I like all the things that we’re sharing and referencing today. But a leader that comes to the table with layered thinking, several different depths and dimensions at coming with this truth that I’m going to deliver is 100% the winner in the room. If we’re trying to win. And when we say, that is one of the best things that I’ve heard, and somebody at a whole different level of leadership can say the same thing, chances are that idea, that thought was bathed in layered thinking. Take this book I keep holding up.

Everyone communicates, few connect. Sounds nice. Take another one of John’s books that says, sometimes you win, sometimes you learn. Reference that while ago. Those are really cute buzwords. But when he begins to build those out in a speech or in a book, you begin to realize the depth and the significance of the layered thinking behind it.

Chris Goede:

Yeah. What I love about this, going back to this book, is that John had some principles, some concepts, he had some thoughts with his writing, know that he had shared thinking with. And then didn’t he go about pushing this content out and letting people kind of speak to that? And that’s the pictures on the COVID.

Mark Cole:

Pictures on the COVID of the book.

Chris Goede:

Which back then, he was doing layered thinking and didn’t even really know what that phrase was about until a little bit later on. But that’s in essence what he was doing with the book.

Mark Cole:

Right? Exactly right.

Chris Goede:

Yeah. All right, good. Layered thinking. Take some time, no pun intended, to think on that because that is some really good stuff that at your leadership table will help your shared thinking. Okay, I want to talk a little bit now about this comment that John said. People who can bring the best thinking out of those that are around them, it often makes me think about who we do life with. It makes me think about the leadership table. It thinks about the power of questions.

It makes me think about the relationship side of people. Talk a little bit about that circle of people that are around you and the importance of that and evaluating that in the concept of shared thinking.

Mark Cole:

Yeah. Every once in a while, we’ll look here at our company. We inventory. We warehouse a lot of our stuff. Digital products would be an exception. But we have books, we have different kits, different things that we send out to workshops for your team.

Chris Goede:

Sure.

Mark Cole:

And every once in a while, we’ll just do an inventory check and say, how much inventory do we have? Which is one piece of inventory management, for sure. How much are we moving? That’s another. And how many days did it take us to move it? So we do this whole inventory to be a strong business. And all of you out there that sells and holds inventory, you get that analogy? The thing I think many of us don’t do very well is do a relationship inventory. We don’t take time, as John’s saying here, who to invite to your leadership table. We don’t take time to ask who’s at our relational table? Who are we spending our time with? And because we don’t do that, we’re getting the same thing we’ve been getting for ten to 15 years. And it’s not because we haven’t grown and learned. It’s because we’re still sitting at the same table we were before, and we’re not getting anything from that table.

Here’s my challenge to all of us. I want you to do a relationship inventory. Okay, here’s how to do it. I want you to go back the last two weeks, and I want you to identify every person you spent time with. Look at your calendar, recall each and every day, and just begin to think through who did I spend my time with? And the next step, there’s a lot of angles to this, but the next step, just to make this very simple, that’s something all of us can do, is to ask yourself a question. When I spent time with them, did they raise me or did they lower me? Did they lift me up? Did they drag me down? Did they encourage me? Did they discourage me? And what you’ll find sometimes is we’re spending way too much time with people that are bringing something to the table that we don’t even want. And because we don’t do an inventory of who is at our table with the intent of putting people around the table that will help us, we end up with the same results. Because our table hasn’t changed.

Change your table. Change your results. Change who you spend time with. Change your results.

Chris Goede:

Love it. And again, as you mentioned in the States tomorrow, as this is released, is Thanksgiving really be thinking about that, right? Because that’s who you should be thankful for in the challenge of that thinking. Here’s the other thing I was thinking about too, is one of our executive facilitators and coaches that does some work with us and does great work in the field with companies. Shared this story with me and he said when he was early in his career, and we would get around the table, our leadership table, and the leader would say, hey, I got an idea. I got a thought. Here’s what we’re going to do. I want to get some feedback from you. I want to get your thoughts.

And he said, man, he was so excited. He thought he’d sit up and go, hey, I think what you do, boss, I’m right with you. That’s it. And he said he’ll never forget. The leader looked at him and said, well, if you’re thinking exactly what I’m thinking, both of us are not needed at this table. And I’ll let you guess which one won’t come back. And I thought to myself, oh, gosh, that’s so true. And so leaders, listen around your leadership table.

And I know John and Mark think the same thing, right? We have brought a team together. You have brought a team together. You have these relationships because we need diverse perspective. We need enhanced problem solving ideas. You’re there for a reason. Share those ideas. Leaders allow your people to share those ideas. Too many times in organizations that we work with, we see leaders that hire these incredible people and then they mold them and shape them to be the little in the box that they want them to be.

They don’t allow them to do and think and create shared thinking like they have the ability to do it. And so while we have a diverse team, we need to be more diverse. We don’t do a really good job of inclusively leading those people to pull out what’s best of want to. I’m going to throw it to you and let you close. I just wanted to share that because as you were talking, I was thinking about that and I know that I do that at times, too. And so I know also that you and John will be like, well, we’re not going to invite that individual back to the right. Like, so, man, be in a position and a posture of sharing what you’re thinking, sharing your perspective, because it may not be the right idea. By the way, 90%, as John said, are not going to be any good.

Yeah, but there’s going to be 10% of what you share, that is going to be good, and that’s what the team needs of you at the table.

Mark Cole:

Chris, I’m going to come back to you, so don’t sit back and go take a restroom break. Wrap here. I love what you just said. It really struck me. There is a fine line between a highly responsible leader that takes responsibility for everything, good and bad, and knowing when somebody is not taking enough responsibility on the team, because I am that guy that for years and years and years and years, I have just taken ultimate responsibility for everything because that’s what leaders do. But then when I go to give responsibility to an underperforming teammate, I always question myself, am I holding him her to my standard or their standard? And oftentimes I have misjudged or misconcluded a team member’s contribution based on my criteria of myself, not on my criteria of their best self. And I’ve missed it. Just as you were talking, I went, oh, the other thing that’s a very fine line, however, is when somebody disagrees because they disagree, and somebody that disagrees to be obstinate, right to be a pain, that’s right to be a challenge, and I find myself as a leader, and perhaps this applies to many of you, and I just felt the conflict of that, Chris, when you were talking.

Oftentimes I feel like that I am in this conundrum of do I really want valid feedback or do I just want feedback that I approve of? And I sit in this weird thing that makes, at times, people not really know which version of me wants which version of them and leaders. I would just challenge you to wrestle with this. I’m going to wrestle with it because that’s what Chris just gave me, and I need to stop recording and go think. But there’s one other final thing that I do want to say, and I want to hear your thoughts on it. John makes a point. Point number three, that says people who emotionally can handle the changes of conversation. And the reason I want to come back to that is because what I just shared that you struck in me. I think the biggest challenge for us as leaders and people that we want around our leadership table is how well they handle when the conversation changes.

I’ve watched too many people interrupt easily and get frustrated easily when they are interrupted. I’ve watched too many people that, when their idea was deemed a bad idea, dig their hills in and want to fight back or shut down. And really, there is something John is uncovering for us in this third point. People who are emotionally able to handle the changes of conversation that we need to dig into and we start digging into these things with us first. Can I handle. I got to tell you, there are sometimes that I am driving home a point that when somebody interrupts me, it feels like the end of the meeting. I’m just so frustrated. And what I don’t realize, if the idea is really good, it should be able to overcome the interruption.

If the idea is really good, it should be able to stay a good idea while we chase a rabbit. But the people that can’t chase the rabbit or can’t handle the interruption, most of the time they’re defending a mediocre idea, not defending a good idea. Because a good idea can handle a chase.

Chris Goede:

That’s right.

Mark Cole:

And a good idea can handle an interruption. But because it’s not that great of an idea, we’re not emotionally strong enough to let the idea just kind of settle because I’ve never presented a life changing idea that didn’t have ultimately, most everybody around my leadership table leaning forward. It’s the mediocre ideas that they’re thinking. Something your.

Chris Goede:

Yeah. Let me give you a couple thoughts. I have a bunch of them in my head right now and a couple of examples as well. But I think it’s interesting because when we were listening to John and I didn’t know you were going to come back to this point, here’s what I put out to the side. Have to set your ego aside.

Mark Cole:

Yep.

Chris Goede:

And I also think this is something that I talk to a lot of leaders about, that we as an organization need to even get it out there more. And as leaders, we need to be aware of this. Consistency, as John says, compounds consistency in how you handle your emotions is something that is not unpacked enough in leadership. And so when we get into these meetings, specifically when we’re talking about around the leadership table and shared thinking, we have to be emotionally consistent, not lose the thought, not the idea. I would challenge what you said and say we should never allow somebody to interrupt their, especially when we’re in thinking mode where they’re going to defend or dig in or whatever. Just make a little note, by the way, be emotionally consistent and stable, then come back to it. Be curious, why was Mark saying this? Where is he at all this kind of stuff? And then say, okay, well, here’s where I’m thinking. Let’s go here.

And be able to have emotional consistency in these atmospheres or in these meetings I think is huge. Doesn’t mean you can’t have passion, doesn’t mean you can’t have the red hair going like you talked about, or intensity. We’re talking about consistency in our emotions and how we’re communicating. One of the ideas or the examples I was thinking about was a big idea that a couple of months ago came to the table and you could see the passion, the excitement, and you’re communicating it. And there’s a lot of people that started digging in and what about this, and what about that versus being curious about it, being consistent across the board? And let’s go figure out exactly what do we need to do to make that happen, because it is a big idea. So we could probably do a whole podcast on that question that you just asked and thinking about how do we become more consistent in those meetings? Not less intense, not less passiOnate, not less creative, no consistence across the board. And how do we set our ego aside? Because remember what John said, 90% of what we talk about is going to be a bad idea. The only way we’re going to really get it to a good idea is to share that 90%, get to the 10%, and then allow that shared thinking, that layered thinking with our leadership team to happen.

Mark Cole:

Yeah, we’re going to have to do a podcast lesson and maybe just bring John in live to do the lesson. But on the difference between the balance between leadership certainty and the leadership curiosity, how can you be certain on a direction and remain curious? And I watched John in that meeting that you’re talking about get really curious if there was a better idea. But he was already certain he was, but he never lost his curiosity in the middle of staying certain. There is an art, there is a skill, there is something there, Chris, that I promise you, podcast family, we’re going to go dig into and bring it back to you.

Chris Goede:

And it may be a book soon. Yeah, but that’s okay. We’ll start with the podcast and then we’ll let him do his book on.

Mark Cole:

Hey, I’m going to kind of end with a helpful quote. The team always puts something together for me and they quoted my mom and your mom. That’s basically what they did with this quote. But it’s a great quote to end. It says this, show me your friends and I’ll show you your future. Your mom may or not have said it just like that, just like my mom didn’t, but that’s what they said. I want to know your friends and I’ll just tell you this. Show me your leadership table and I’ll be able to predict an element of your future.

Do you have a strong one. Do you have a bright one? Is your best days behind you? Look at your leadership table, do an inventory, and it’ll give you some great insight. I close today with a podcast comment from Michael. Michael listened to the podcast with Tim Elmore called I Can’t Wait. This is a book that Tim Elmore has brought up. We’ll put that in the link as well as the everyone communicates. Few connect with some discount code in there. Use the Code podcast.

But in this podcast, Tim Elmore just did a phenomenal job talking about how to bring people around a table, by the way, the dinner table. And so, Michael, it’s apropos that we use that today in this, and this is what Michael said. I actually listened to this podcast three times. He said, I couldn’t help but cry while listening to the podcast. I will get this book for me. I will get it from our youth pastor, Michael. Thank you. That’s why we do what we do, because everyone deserves to be led well.