The Leader Loop

Mark Cole:

Hey, welcome to the Maxwell Leadership podcast. This is the podcast that adds value to leaders who multiply value to others. My name is Mark Cole, and today we’re talking about leading across. In fact, many leaders think that leadership flows down. In other words, I am the leader and its direct. It flows in one direction from top to bottom. But I’ll tell you, if leadership is influence and if it’s really nothing more and nothing less than influence, then leadership can flow from the bottom to the top. Leadership can flow from the top down. Leadership can flow from side to side. See, that’s called leading across. Leading across means leading your colleagues, your peers, those around you that you don’t have positional responsibility, but you have team responsibility.

In today’s lesson, John Maxwell is going to teach the seven phases of the leadership loop, which every leader who wishes to lead across must embrace. After John’s lesson, I will be joined by my co-host Chris Goede and we will discuss what we’ve learned and how we embrace these principles to lead within the Maxwell Leadership organization. Now, be sure to download our free bonus resource. This is one that we have created for this episode. It’s a fill in the blank PDF that accompanies John’s lesson, and you can find that at maxwellpodcast.com/loop. Also, if you would like to watch this episode on YouTube, you can do so by visiting maxwellpodcast.com/youtube. All right, that’s it for now. Let’s learn from John Maxwell.

John Maxwell:

The most important thing I can say about leading across, leading your peers, your colleagues, is to understand, practice and complete the leadership loop. And I’m going to explain the leadership loop to you. Leading peers is not a one time event. It’s an ongoing process. The problem for some people is that they try to lead others too quickly. They try to take shortcuts. They cheat the process. But if you want to lead across effectively, you need to complete the loop. Here it is. Number one. The first step in the leadership loop is caring. Number two is learning. I’m going to come back and explain all these for you. Number three is appreciating. Four is contributing. Five is verbalizing. Six is leading. Number seven, succeeding. That’s the leadership loop. Now, we’re going back to one. I’m going to explain how the leadership loop works. Number one is caring. In other words, what I’m saying is take an interest in people.

That’s the first thing. In leading people that are beside you, the first thing they need to experience from you is not what you know, but that you care. And again, the statement is so true. It’s a relationship statement, but it’s a leadership statement too. People always move toward anyone who increases them and away from anyone who decreases them. That’s just a fact. So, how do you pull your colleagues, the people are on the same level of you in the organization, how do you pull them to you? The first step in the leadership loop is by letting them know that you care for them, period. Now, number two is learning. When I talk about learning, I’m talking now about getting to know people. Getting to know people. In other words, if I’m going to effectively lead the people that are on the same level as me, I need to really know them. Learning or getting to know people is based upon that ability.

And the question I would have to you as a 360 Degree Leader is a very simple one. How well do you know the people beside you? If you had to name what their top two or three values are, would you know what they are? That’s the learning part of the leadership loop. Number three is appreciating. Respect people. Dennis Bakke, chief executive of AES, makes the following positive assumptions about people. “People are creative and trustworthy beings capable of thinking, reasoning, learning, and decision making. People are responsible and accountable for their ideas and actions. People are unique, both in gifts and needs. People are fallible. We all make mistakes, sometimes on purpose.” Hello. “People desire to be part of a group of community with a cause and to make a positive contribution in the world.” Respecting and appreciating people. Number four is contributing, adding value to people.

Few things increase the credibility of leaders like dedication to adding value to the people around them, especially when they’re never obligated to do it. They’re neither obligated to do it nor receiving direct benefit from it. Adding value to peers lets them know that you want them to win. Number five is verbalizing, affirming people. To affirm is to make firm. That’s what affirm means. An affirmation is a statement of truth. You make firm by repetition. Affirmations help others believe in their dreams. Belief is essential. Their dreams must become more real than their doubt. Affirmations are like lifting weights, a mechanical process that helps build strength or belief in their dream. Number six in the leadership loop is leading. And by the way, did you notice it’s number six and that’s where we influence people. But did you notice it was number six? Here’s the mistake we make. The mistake we make is we look and say, “How can I lead other people when we immediately think of leadership?”

Instead of thinking about caring, learning, appreciating, contributing, verbalizing. Then all of a sudden, if you’ve done all those things, well, now you can start to influence people. In my book, Becoming A Person Of Influence, I talk about how to influence people. A person of influence has integrity with people. A person of influence nurtures other people. A person of influence has faith in people. A person of influence listens to people. A person of influence understands people. A person of influence enlarges people. A person of influence navigates for other people. A person of influence connects with people. And a person of influence empowers people. Now, if you do the leadership loop so far, so well, then number seven is going to happen. You’re going to be in that succeeding stage of the leadership loop, where you win with people. Now’s where you’re going to have great value of leading across, when you start winning with people.

When you succeed with people, then you gain opportunities with more people and that starts the cycle over again. That’s why it’s called the leadership loop. As new people come in new your life, you must, etc cetera. In a healthy working environment, there is both competition and teamwork. The issue is to know when each is appropriate. The bottom line is that the organization needs both in order to win, and the success of the whole team is more important than the individual wins. Groups of peers who have learned how to easily shift from competing to completing develop great team ministry. The difference between competing and completing is very simple. People that compete have a scarcity mindset. People that complete others have an abundance mindset. There’s a major difference between those two. When I’m competing it’s me first, and when I’m completing it’s the organization or others first. Competing destroys trust. Completing develops trust. And competing thinks win/lose, and completing thinks win-win.

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Mark Cole:

Hey, welcome back. Chris, I’m glad to be in studio with you today. You and I have had a lot of different relationships. I’m super excited about digging into this. We’ve had peer relationships. We’ve had the chance to lead side by side, you in operations, me in event sales. And operations and sales don’t always get along. I don’t know if that’s really an epiphany for any of you listening to the podcast or watching today, but we’ve had a chance to do that. And I love how John is introducing his thinking. John has a quote and I love this, that, Jake, you included in my notes. John has a quote that says, “Leaders become great not because of their power, but because of their ability to empower others.” And when John’s helping us with this loop, if you read the book 360 Degree Leader, which by the way, we’re going to include it in the show notes, we’re going to give you a 15% discount on the book, but if you’ll read the book, John is teaching this loop, Chris, for people like you and I have been working side by side.

How do I gain influence with you, and then set you free to go create influence for others? So, how do I add value to you in a peer relationship? How do I gain influence, leadership, with you as a peer? And then how do I empower you to go help others? And John gets really just fundamental in this lesson and gives us a real seven step process to have this influence loop in a peer relationship. But you said this at the beginning and I want you to start us off with this. You said, “Mark, this is peer. This is 360.” But I think this works in any kind of leadership relationship.

Chris Goede:

It does. Yeah. Let me start by saying this. Aren’t you and I grateful that we’re at a place and we work for a leader that develops stuff like this that’s very simple?

Mark Cole:

Yeah. Otherwise we probably wouldn’t be sitting here.

Chris Goede:

We wouldn’t be. Now, it’s simple. The loop is simple. I love it. It lays it out. It’s not easy to implement. And as leaders, especially peer to peer, we get into a silo. We want to protect our territory. We want to protect our lead. We don’t necessarily want to connect with our peers. And so this gives you a roadmap. This is a simple process, not easy to do as a leader. And we’re going to talk a little bit about that today and pull some things from you on how you’ve done this, and what’s easy and what’s hard for you and the application.

But I think you’re right. I think this is bigger than just peer to peer. And John would agree with that. John would say, “No, absolutely. This is a fundamental part of leading people.” And we say this around here quite a bit. We love what we get to do. Everybody deserves to be led well. We want to add value to leaders. But we love what we get to do. And more importantly, we love who we get to do it with. And I think you can only say those type of statements, whether they’re a peer or someone you work for or that works for you, if you truly understand this loop that John has laid out for us.

Mark Cole:

Yeah. I want to say one more thing just to contextualize this before we dig in. You mentioned that we get in these silos. Peers get in silos. I’ve got my little responsibilities. “Hope you do well over there, Chris, but I’ve got my stuff I need to do. Hey, Jared, I hope you get all the content done, but I got my stuff to do.” And yeah, that’s really a real deal to where we become ineffective not for any other reason then we just get focused on what we need to do. So, we don’t even think about the peer. Because why would I spend time trying to lead a peer? They got their thing. I got my thing. There’s another reason that we’re not very good at this, and it’s a competitive reason.

Chris Goede:

No doubt.

Mark Cole:

Right?

Chris Goede:

That’s exactly what I was thinking. Yeah.

Mark Cole:

I mean, you’ve played ball at the senior level, at the highest level, and there’s, in all of us, a little bit of a competitive, “I got to win. I want to be a little bit better.” Right now in Maxwell Leadership we are really focused on expanding our Spanish platform. And for the first time ever last month, for the first time ever, our Spanish team outsold our English team. Our English team is 10 years old. Our Spanish team is about four years old. Never been done in the last 48 months until last month. And I found myself a CEO going, “How do I celebrate the first time ever one team has done better than the other team?” Because sometimes when you compare, you end up making one team feel like that they’re not doing very well and the other team feel like, “Hey, they don’t have anything to do. They’ve reached the pinnacle.” I think as peers as we dig into this, Chris, I think we need to understand that competitiveness with peers rather than completing with peers is extremely a dangerous sport to play in a team environment, especially on a corporate team.

Chris Goede:

No doubt.

Mark Cole:

Because that competitiveness causes you to lose effectiveness. And I’ve heard John tell story after story of when he was a pastor and he was raising a lot of money and he didn’t want to help another church raise money because why would he help another church he was competing with?

Chris Goede:

He didn’t want to. Yeah.

Mark Cole:

I think you really have to check. Now, your drive to succeed is one thing. But when you are a competitive person like you and I, and you’re in a peer relationship, your competitor has to be yourself, not the person you’re trying to influence.

Chris Goede:

That’s right. That’s right.

Mark Cole:

And so I just want to say that because silos inhibit our ability to influence at a peer level, but so does competitiveness, and just keep that in check.

Chris Goede:

Yeah. And just two thoughts on that and then we’re going to dive into this loop. You challenge us as leaders in this organization to compare against what we have done in the past, not compare against what another business unit is doing. And I think that’s healthy to do that. And you got to have that focus. Otherwise, to your point, everybody’s got a little bit of competitiveness in them. And what ends up happening, not only where you had a little bit of angst of, “How do I talk about what we’ve done in four years, and finally, the first time ever more than an English platform,” not only is that maybe a rub for the team, but then the leaders of those business units inside your organization, and they are peers, go, “Well, you know what? I’m not going to share any more information.” And what you end up doing is creating a subculture inside that organization.

So, we got off on a little bit of tangent there, but I think that’s good context for what we’re talking about here with leaders and peers and all that stuff. Let me say this too. This is not just inside your organization. And Mark’s going to talk a little bit about this. He’s going to ask you a couple questions around ,when you think about peer to peer people go, “OH, it’s the peers inside my organization.” It’s peers outside the organization. You have a lot of peers. Matter of fact, you have more peers now outside of the organization than you do inside the organization as the CEO.

So, I want you to think about this loop and these principles that John has taught us today, that they apply outside of your organization as well. And know that. So, here’s what I want to do. You’ve led at all levels throughout our organization. And right before we went live here, I asked you, I said, “Let’s talk a little bit about the ones that maybe they’re a little bit harder for you. Maybe you stay a little bit too long in the loop,” and then what just comes naturally for you, where you don’t even think about it and we’re moving on and you just naturally do it. And you so graciously said, “Yeah, let’s talk about it.” We’ll air the dirty laundry of Mark’s leadership style.

Mark Cole:

If we have time to air the dirty laundry. There’s quite a bit of dirty laundry in here.

Chris Goede:

So, let’s talk about this because I want our listeners to take these principles that John gave us, and we’re just going to probably pick two or three of them and talk about them, but I want them to hear a real life application from Mark’s leadership style and what that looks like. So, let’s dive in. Tell the listeners and those that are the viewers that are joining us via YouTube, tell them a little about, when you look at this loop, what’s the one that you really, again, hardest may not be the right word, but where you just maybe stay a little bit too long as you think about influencing your peers or people with inside your leadership.

Mark Cole:

Yeah. And I love this exercise. And typically we just cut all the mics and we try to be really raw. So, it’s very applicable. We did talk about this a little bit and I paused for a minute, Chris, and I didn’t tell you this before we started recording, but I’ll tell you now because you said air out dirty laundry. It was a toss up between the one I’m going to share and the other one, which is caring. Now, you wouldn’t have thought that because you and I agreed on what the one I stay at the longest and I’ll share that in just a moment. But here’s the deal with caring. I am a relational person, but I’m a relational person with an agenda. Forgive me, everybody, for just admitting that, okay? I am-

Chris Goede:

We just got real. Matter of fact, we’re going to go a completely different direction because now I’m going to interrogate Mark Cole and his leadership. But I love that. I love the vulnerability.

Mark Cole:

I’m a very relational person-

Chris Goede:

And you like pace, right?

Mark Cole:

… but I have always naturally cared for a purpose. The longer I’ve been around John Maxwell, the more I care for a purpose because we’re always intentional, always going. So, I struggle with that because now let’s talk about who we’re talking about. We’re talking about peers. So, “I love you. How’s your mom and them? We’re good.” I don’t really care about your business. I got an agenda over here. I’ve got to run my business. And so I really paused. And you’ll remember when you asked me that question before we started recording, I paused because I went, “Would it be caring? Would I share that if it was caring? Do I want people to know that I care for an agenda?”

I went through all these mental calisthenics. I really do have to work to care about somebody else’s agenda. I’m a relational person. I care about the agenda of the people that I’m leading, but guess why? So, that I can help them be more effective so we can do great things together. And so caring for a peer takes a discipline even for a relational person. And for some of you that are relational like me, I just set you free because you admitted something, okay?

Chris Goede:

Yeah. And I think you shared something that a lot of people think that don’t talk about it, that don’t share that.

Mark Cole:

Admit it. They don’t talk about it.

Chris Goede:

They don’t.

Mark Cole:

They don’t even admit it to themselves.

Chris Goede:

Especially not the millions of people that are listening to this podcast right now. But yeah, that’s a true statement.

Mark Cole:

But let’s talk about the one that you and I both agreed that is the one I stay the longest and it’s actually number two. It’s learning. And it’s not that I don’t love to learn. I can remember as a four, five year old kid, just reading, reading, reading. I love to learn. I love a lesson. A lesson learned is better than a buck put in the bank in my opinion. Because the return on a lesson is brilliant. But why would I answer that I stayed there the longest? It’s because one, I’m vetting the lesson. Again, you said, “Air the dirty laundry.” When I’m learning something from somebody I’m vetting it from what I really believe. I’m a very strong willed, very opinionated person. I bet you that’s the first time you were aware of that, Chris. And what I realize is in learning a lesson, I really want to make sure it’s a lesson or it’s somebody else’s opinion.

I want to make sure if it will stand the test of something or if it’s just a cute little idea. And so I stay long with a lesson because when I determine that it is a lesson, I want it to drive the behaviors and the beliefs deep within me. And so lessons and learning is extraordinarily important to me because as I discover things, lessons, things that I learn along the way, I really expect a return for them. So, I stay partly because it’s hard. It’s difficult to learn. I stay also because I’m vetting, am I really learning? But I also stay because when I am learning, I want a great return off of whatever that lesson is that I’m learning.

Chris Goede:

So, let me interrupt you for a second. So, when we take this learning, because you are an avid learner, and we tie it to your peers and we tie it to learning about them, learning what they do, learning their skillset, I’m not going to say that you challenge what they are or anything, but you want it to stand the test of time. You want, from an integrity standpoint, for it to be lived out in that individual. You want to learn more about them and see that fleshed out. And that’s what takes you the longest and in regards to learning and connecting with people, because you do the same thing with concepts and principles that you would do with people.

Mark Cole:

I do. In fact, I think that when we talk about learning and you’re talking about in any kind of a setting, whether it’s from a book or from a person, that how you receive it is what the lesson is all about. So, me tell you. I think when I learn something about you, Chris, I can discover something about you and appreciate that. So, I really learned it. But I think when you give me insight into you, it’s one of the most important things that you could ever give me. Because I should do something with that lesson that whether it’s from a teacher, whether it’s from a boss, somebody above us, whether it’s from a book, when somebody gives you the gift of insight, then it should be treated as something that deepens your ability to be effective. So, when you take a moment and you share something about you, I’m learning about you as my peer. That is a great gift of a lesson that as I learn about you, it should change behavior and change perceptions within me.

Chris Goede:

That’s good.

Mark Cole:

Your lessons, what I learn about you, should be applied within me so that we can do something great together. That’s in this context of learning about another human being, a person beside you, I find it incredibly important that we take this as if it’s a lesson in algebra in-

Chris Goede:

That’s good.

Mark Cole:

… sixth grade. I take that as a gift that will make me more effective. Again, why are we doing this? This is a leadership loop.

Chris Goede:

That’s right.

Mark Cole:

This is not a relationship loop. If it’s a relationship loop,. Tell me about your mom and them. Tell me about something that you like. Oh, that’s good. Let me celebrate it. No, no, no. This is a leadership loop. I’m learning from you so I can be more effective with you.

Chris Goede:

I have seen you, as you were talking about that, I’ve seen you do that with different people in our organization so that they want to follow you, so that they want to be a part of the bigger picture, the mission, the organization that we are doing. And I think so many people, we talk about this in different leadership things and you see this all the time, where they get an opportunity to be a part of an organization or a part of a team and have a peer, and they forget all about the caring. They forget all about the learning. And as John mentioned, a lot of people go directly to number six in the loop, which is leading, and they’re missing the foundation of influencing and connecting with people.

Mark Cole:

Let me give you one example, okay?

Chris Goede:

Yeah.

Mark Cole:

You don’t have a clue where I’m going, but it’s all about you, okay? Again, please contextualize, because I did spend a good bit of time talking about lessons that I learned, but this is a leadership loop, not a relationship loop. Now, watch. Just recently you gave my wife an experience that I would’ve never thought of. You listened to her about a year ago talk with your wife about something that she wanted to do. And when the opportunity came up, you brought it up to Stephanie, which I guess is a peer. It’s definitely a relationship. You don’t have a working relationship with Stephanie, but you both were on the same page trying to influence the call of where we’re going. This just happened. You took time by reminding her what you heard her say before and how you have been diligently working on giving her an experience she could not have gotten by herself.

Last night and in multiple nights since what she has done is she has shared with me the significance, not of what the experience is going to be, of how that linked back to what you learned about her in a conversation that was irrelevant to a relational thing. Oh, it was good to know Stephanie had this ambition, this bucket list. That’s all wonderful. No, no, no. You have a leadership path on and you learned a lesson and applied it. That is all relational. Got it. But it was leadership too. There is a great sense of leadership in that example.

Chris Goede:

That’s good. That’s a good example. Yeah. I appreciate that.

Mark Cole:

Well, thank you.

Chris Goede:

Yeah, absolutely. All right. So, let’s get back to the loop now. Let’s move on. And I want to talk a little bit about, from your leadership perspective and how you lead, what comes easiest to you. And we were both in agreement on this one as well. Talk a little bit about which one it is and then let’s unpack it a little bit.

Mark Cole:

Yeah. So, it’s verbalizing. And this was an easy one. I’m a words of affirmation person. I want words of affirmation. I give words of affirmation. I believe words of affirmation. I see that good, that highlightable item in another human being. And so whether it’s peers, whether it’s people, I love how you contextualize this at the beginning of this podcast, for us, we all have peers outside of our industry, outside of the walls of our organization. And it just comes easy for me to find, highlight… I’ve been saying lately, it’s easy for me to note something celebratable in a person’s life. And it’s easy for me to notate it. I love to note it. I love to see powerful things in another person. I love just as much to notate it, tell them I noticed it. To me that really does come easy, and specifically in building a leadership influence with them.

Chris Goede:

You’ve challenged us as a team before. And I was smiling when you said the note versus notate because you challenged us and you said, “Hey, watch what’s going on in your team. Watch what’s going on with your peers. Make a note of it, but then I want you to notate it.” And it’s been powerful because you’ve been able… Now with text and email, it’s so easy to notate to people what you have been able to see and observe in their leadership and verbalize that to them. So, what does that do? Whether they’re a peer or whatever. It raises your influence.

Mark Cole:

That’s right.

Chris Goede:

It raises your connection, and everybody wins. The organization wins. You win. They win. Everybody wins across that. Now, with this we’ve also talked a little bit about, when one of these areas in this loop come very easy to you as a leader, there’s a blind spot to that. There is a, “Hey, maybe I do this too much.” And I’m smiling at Mark. It just comes so naturally and it oozes out of you as a leader that you don’t want it to come across to where it’s not authentic in the communication and connection with them. Talk a little bit about that from your leadership, where things you’ve learned on how to control that. Maybe you want to like, “Oh, I want to notate that,” but then you’ve held back. And then maybe other times where you’ve reached out to people that you’re not even that close to, but are a peer in the leadership world, and you’ve done it and it’s had a great impact. Just talk about some of those examples.

Mark Cole:

Yeah. So, about 14 years ago, maybe 15 now, I can remember, I could give her name, I mean, I can go back to the conversation, a friend of mine that was not under my leadership but was on the same team came to me and said, “Do you know this person over here does not like you?” I thought we had a great relationship. And I struggled with people pleasing all of my life. John helped me go from pleasing people to leading people. And it bothered me so bad. And I said, “Why?” And they said, “Because they think you’re fake.” And I went, “I’m fake?” And they said, “Yeah. You compliment people too much. You verbalize affirmation way too much.” And I went, “How do you verbalize affirmation too much?” I think the world can’t get enough affirmation. I mean, give me some more. Give me some.

Chris Goede:

Yeah. If they’re breathing.

Mark Cole:

Yes. If they’re breathing, they need affirmation, right? It really was perplexing to me. And I sit down with the individual and I said, “Can you help me understand how I compliment too much?” And she said to me, “There is no way you can believe that much good about another human being.” And I worked through that with her and, “I really do.” And then she said, “Here’s the really straw that broke the camel back. I heard you telling one person the same thing you had told somebody else the day before.” And she says, “You don’t give enough specificity with your affirmation when you verbalize.”

Chris Goede:

Yeah. That’s good. That’s good.

Mark Cole:

Now, the lesson for me was not, “I’m verbalizing too much.” She had some wounds in her life to where somebody had buttered her up and then behind her back sliced her down. I didn’t know that. I’m not responsible for that with her. I didn’t learn to stop verbalizing. Here’s what I did learn. Verbalize with specifics.

Chris Goede:

I love it.

Mark Cole:

Be very clear when you’re verbalizing. “I love you. You’re awesome. Way to go. You’re a team player.” All of that’s wonderful but, “You’re a team player because the other day I saw you put aside your agenda for someone else’s agenda.”

Chris Goede:

Awesome.

Mark Cole:

Go be specific in verbalizing, or you will really will diminish your intent in verbalizing affirmation.

Chris Goede:

Yeah. And when it’s a natural gift and it’s a gift that you have as a leader, as an individual, like it is for Mark, that’s the blind spot. That’s what we’ve got to be aware of on the other side of that. And so it may not be verbalizing for you. It may be somewhere else on the loop, but that’s an application. That’s something that we want you to be aware of through Mark’s leadership that you need to pay attention to. The last thing I’ll say about this, and then I’m going to throw you a little curve ball and we’re going to talk about one more, is that I’ve seen your growth in this, and I’ve seen you a lot lately where not only are you verbalizing with specifics, but you’re tying it to a value of the organization. So, think about this, right?

We have peers inside our organization. And when you verbalize this with them in front of a team, or maybe even one-on-one, you tie it back to, “Hey, I saw this. We exceed expectations. Now let me tell you what so-and-so did.” And so not only are you specific on the value that you want to verbalize and lift up in the culture of our organization as a leader, but then you’re specific with the example. And I can think of several of them. And so I would just encourage you not only to be specific as Mark talked about, but then tie it to the value that’s important to you or the organization. All right. The last one I want to talk about. I’ve seen you do this from a leadership standpoint where John talks about, and this is an infinite loop, right? We know that this is going to be ongoing, where he says, “Hey, the last one is succeeding.” And what I love about this… Notice, we didn’t even talk about leading, number six today, right?

Mark Cole:

Yeah.

Chris Goede:

You do all these other things, you’re going to be able to lead. Where he says, “Man, we want to win with people. We want to do this with people.” And you want to do it with your peers. You want to do it with those that are on your team. Talk about the importance of this to you as a leader of, “Man, we’re not doing something alone.” And as we grow our influence, we’ve got to be paying attention to what’s going on with our peers because they’re leading other units and the rising tide raises all boats, and we want to win together. Talk about your passion as a leader to do that with people, with leaders, and not to succeed on your own.

Mark Cole:

I love John’s definition of success. We’re talking about succeeding. I love his definition of success where he says, “Success is when those that know you the most think the most of you.” And I think so many times we want to be seen as a world leader or as an influencer. We want people that have to say we’re good people because we sign their checks. We spend more time in wanting people that get benefit by saying we’re successful to get us to say that we’re successful, or we spend so much time getting someone that can promote us to more success to see us as successful. What I love about succeeding in this loop is you’re succeeding with people that don’t have to say you’re successful. And you’re succeeding with people that you don’t try to impress so that they will promote you.

Chris Goede:

That’s right. That’s right.

Mark Cole:

This is success with people that has no vested ability to promote you or to help you succeed. And when you can succeed with your peers, you have real success. You have a success because those that know you the most, those that people that think, they’re the people that have the same amount of responsibility or not, they’re the same people that have the same frustration of being the second man, third man, 10th man down the pole, they have all the same challenges and they watch you from their vantage point and they go, “Wow, that guy is successful.” See, in our organization anymore, Chris, you know this, in our organization anymore, and I’ve had to hire, even recently, some outside talent that I just needed to help me get to a certain level in the organization, when I promote internally or even somebody from the outside in and give another promotion, it is extremely important to me that their peers demand their promotion before I as their, forgive this word, superior promotes them. And when peers are saying, “That person needs to be promoted,” you have been successful at peer to peer leadership.

Chris Goede:

Yeah. That’s good. Well, I’ve seen not only you do that with individual leaders, but then also different business units inside our organization. And there are leaders that are peers inside your world, whatever that might look like, we’ve talked about it a couple different ways, to where you could check out and it’s not a celebration as it should be because you’re worried about competing and you’re not winning with people. And what I love about the example I was thinking, and I’m going to throw to you to close up this session today on the leadership loop, is I was thinking about our nonprofit and the John Maxwell Leadership Foundation, and George Hoskins, who’s doing an incredible job leading over there. And while the other business units are for profit, that at times they’re succeeding and doing incredible work, impacting people all around the world.

He’s a peer of mine, right? And he works directly and reports directly to you. But we could just sit over there and say, “Man, you’re doing a good job,” whatever. And be like, “Man, I wish my numbers were that good.” But instead we are celebrating and we want to help complete him and how can we help him and all those different things. And so I just think it’s really encouraging to make sure… And we started off by talking about the silos and we talked about subcultures, that as leaders, we get it. You’re competitive and you’re on a career path and you’re on this track. But man, I want you just to slow down a little bit and think about the peers that are inside your life and some of the examples that, Mark, you shared with us and how do you do a better job of influencing and connecting with those by applying the principles that John gave us in this leadership loop.

Mark Cole:

Yeah. I think a really important next step for all of us… The second most read book of John’s library for me, the first is Developing The Leader Within You 2.0, but the second one I’ve read the most is the 360 Degree Leader, which is where John really talks about how to lead at the peer level. And so for all of our viewers or all of our listeners, we’re going to make that available to you in our show notes. We’ll give you a link there. Use the promo code ‘podcast’ and we’ll give you a 15% discount of that book. And here’s a thought. Buy that book for a couple of people on your team. Maybe give that book to a peer-

Chris Goede:

That’s a great idea.

Mark Cole:

… or two that you’re trying to gain influence with. I think you’re going to really find that very, very beneficial. I want to close today with a listener comment. In fact, it’s going to be a listener comment question, but it’s from Mandul. He listened to the podcast Leading Difficult Personalities. I can’t remember, Chris, if you were my co-host in that, but I bet you you were my case study. Leading Difficult Personalities.

Chris Goede:

I’m not answering this question, Mark.

Mark Cole:

By the way, we’ll put that link in the show notes as well, but here’s what Mandul said. He said, “I’m very grateful for this podcast. It’s really helping me grow. Is there any podcast or book that helps in knowing my leaders better, something that helps me figure out the big five with my team?” And there’s two books that really come to mind as you’re asking that question, Mandul. Number one is the 25 Ways To Win With People. Brilliant book on just the qualities and the ways that you can interact with teammates, peers that will help you. That’s 25 Ways To Win With People. The other is The 17 Qualities of a Team Player. The 17 Qualities of a Team Player. And I’ll tell you what we’ll do since Mandul was so good at asking such a great question, and plus he has a good taste of podcasts. Mandul and team, we’re going to put those books in our show notes and using ‘podcast’ as the promotion code there will also give you 15% off of those books as well. Mandul, thank you. Thanks to all of you that listen, that view. Chris, thank you.

Chris Goede:

Absolutely.

Mark Cole:

Guys, we do this for just really a very important reason. The world needs you and I to powerfully positively change the world around us because everyone deserves to be led well.