Executive Podcast #341: Are You an Influencer or a Person of Influence?

Perry Holley:
Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others, and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. Hi, I’m Perry Holley, a Maxwell leadership facilitator and coach.

Chris Goede:
And I’m Chris Goede, executive vice president with Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining. Before we get started, I want to encourage you to go to MaxwellLeadership.com/Podcast. There, if you’ll click on this podcast, you can download the learner guide for today’s episode or fill out a form, any of the content that we’re bringing to you. If you would love for Perry to get on a coaching call or for our team to come out and do some training or consulting with you around it, that is what we do. That is what we’re here. You can put that in the form, fill that out, and our team will follow back up with you in regards to that. Well, today’s title I think is very, very interesting.

Chris Goede:
I think it’s a. It’s a great intersection of what we do every single day and what’s really happening out there on the world of social media with people. And so I can’t wait for you to tell me a little bit more about where you came up with this, with this title. But here’s what Perry’s bringing to us today. Are you an influencer or a person of influence? I love the play on words here, talk to me more.

Perry Holley:
It’s interesting. I wish I could take credit for that, but I was just doing some reading and the question was actually posed on LinkedIn by Casey Maxwell. No relation that I’m aware of, but I like the Maxwell connection there. But Casey asked the question about the difference between influencer, which is a common term in today’s social media world. Are you just influencing people or are you a person of influence? And it really, in my mind as I started to smile at that play on words, but it really comes down to motivation that what are you, you know, I just had my nose that an influencer seeks to promote themselves because they want to be popular and then as person of influence seeks to promote the ideas, their own ideas, because they’re trying to help others add value to others. And I think that’s something that’s very consistent with our teaching, no doubt.

Chris Goede:
And people can tell if you’re. I know, I can feel it if you’re trying to manipulate them or trying to motivate them. And there’s a motive behind that. We’re Going to unpack that a little bit. But to manipulate it’s getting something for yourself, whether it’s a promotion for you, you’re leveraging people for that or bonuses or recognition, whatever it might be to motivate is to get something for the team or for someone else. And so many of us in our leadership roles start out growing our influence, but end up becoming really more of an influencer. We let our guard down probably a little bit and then we end up becoming more about an influence versus thinking about the methodology of the five levels and what’s truly the meaning behind that and the motive behind increasing your influence. And so it’s a great play on words for us that I think we’re going to be able to help really unpack what this means.

Chris Goede:
They also get so focused. I want to talk about this is that I think when that shift happens and you begin to think about maybe an influencer is that you begin to think about getting your job done. I wrote down the word individual contributor is more important than maybe a team enabler. And thinking about that. And so that shift that’s happening right there to me is the more we talk about it, it is a downslide of influence as an influencer, then a person of influence. When I say downside, I’m already got the 5 levels model in my head thinking about what. That looks very interesting for us to unpack this because of the world that we play in every single day.

Perry Holley:
And we could talk a lot about building. How do you build influence? Well, we’ve done that a lot here. So I’ll just direct you listeners Back to episodes 224 and 225. 224 and 225 are about two episodes on how to build your influence. But today I thought we would maybe ask our listeners to self assess to determine if you are in a place of continuing to grow your influence or if you are that getting the job. You’ve just fallen into that get the job done type of a leader, which would be more like an influencer. And I’m going to use for this, John Maxwell has a book he wrote with Jim Dornan on becoming a person of influence. And in that book John gives four stages of influence.

Perry Holley:
And I thought as I was reviewing and doing a little study on my own that this really pretty good way to evaluate yourself. Where am I in this? So phase one and we’ll just go through the four phases quickly. But first, phase one, John called modeling. And that people are influenced by observing your actions and behavior and you And I have taught many times that people are watching us all the time. All the time. And it’s probably interesting to think about. I always ask this in the class, everybody. Yeah, I agree.

Perry Holley:
People are watching me all the time. What are they watching for? And what are they. What are they picking up from you? Is kind of the question I always like to ask.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. I love that you brought this book back into our conversation today. It’s a. It’s an older book, but it’s John’s interpretation of how to win friends and influence people and working through what this might look like. And these phases we’re going to take you through are relevant today now more than ever. What are the people looking for? I think I’m going to answer this in the way of what I look for. Right. Don’t we often do that and we see people kind of as we are in that situation.

Chris Goede:
So for me, I look for integrity and consistency and. Well, you say, well, what does that mean? What does that. What do you look for? I go, decision making, the humility in certain situations. How are they handling adversity? So I look for that. I look for, are they competent? Because if they’re not competent and they’re in a position of leadership and influence, I go, well, they got pictures or blackmail on somebody.

Perry Holley:
I’m not influenced by incompetence.

Chris Goede:
Yeah. Like, I just. I’m like. And then the final one is, do you have my best interest in mind? Are you. For me, we just did a great podcast on. On that Jeff Henderson content. And so I look for that. And so in turn, to your point, people are watching this all the time.

Chris Goede:
So what are they watching for? What should I be modeling? Authentically, it would fall in those categories.

Perry Holley:
Yeah. And I. When I’m speaking from stage, I’ll sum it up like they’re watching your actions for sure. Does your audio line up with your video? Are you doing what you say you’ll do? I think even more than that, they watch your reactions. How do you handle bad news? Can you. Are you consistent with your emotion? I’m not influenced by somebody who blows up and starts spewing all over the team. That’s not influential to me.

Chris Goede:
You’re actually influencing. Uninfluencing. Yeah. Yeah. That is a negative influence. Negative. Yeah.

Perry Holley:
Watching your actions, your reactions. I believe people are watching your interactions. How do you. How do you speak with people? I just had one recently where they said, the guy, he just. He talks rudely to us and said, well, are you dealing with. Well, he said, that’s just the way I am. I go, how does he talk when the CEO walks through? Oh, he’s very nice. Oh, then it isn’t how he is.

Perry Holley:
Yeah, he is. He. He’s choosing. He’s interacting poorly. I’m not influenced by people that talk poorly to servers and restaurants or helpers in the hotel, or I’m. I’m watching all the time to see how do you talk to people above you and below you? Are you consistent in your communication? So actions, reactions, interactions, your general behaviors are in that phase two, Are you modeling appropriately to gain influence? But then it says, are you motivating? And this is, are you encouraging and inspiring others to believe in themselves? And we talked previously on, on Jeff’s podcast there about belief that the team know you believe in them. But modeling can be done from a distance where people are kind of watching you off. But I’m noticing motivating is kind of done up close and that you’ve got to engage and connect with individuals if you, if you hope to motivate them, and that it’s really communicating with people on an emotional level to get that, that energy in there.

Perry Holley:
But how do you see that?

Chris Goede:
Yeah, when you’re motivating them and connecting to them is a. Of that in order to motivate them, you’re building a bridge. Right. You’re connecting where you are, where you want the team to go, or the individual and where they are. And so I think if you do that through this motivating them, it just connects you to a higher level that you have work for leaders. I have of, of leaders that have motivated me to do certain things, and I’m more connected to them than I am not. And I think this builds a lot of self confidence. We talk about that around believing in people and building self confidence.

Chris Goede:
And when people feel good about you and themselves, when they are with you, then your level of influence has increased. It reminds me of a statement where people go, hey, make sure that when you leave, people don’t think you were the smartest person in the room.

Perry Holley:
That’s right.

Chris Goede:
Right. And when you have that approach, you’re motivating them, you’re lifting them up. But man, they’re believing in themselves and, and they’re motivated themselves because motivation only lasts a certain amount of time. And then as a leader, you remove yourself from the picture and so what is left to be able to accomplish what they need to accomplish?

Perry Holley:
Yeah. And so many of us, we, we lean on external motivators, extrinsic motivators like pay or bonuses or commissions or you know, contests and those type of things. And they do burn out. So I’m always looking when I motivate, can I motivate you intrinsically, internally and giving you a bigger purpose, giving you freedom to do your job, giving you opportunities to become good at your mastering your work and helping you develop? There’s things like that that make people want to be a part of what you’re doing. Another interesting thing is that took me a while. Everybody knows this is true, but you don’t think about it as a leader. But we all have a self concept how we see ourselves. My self image, my.

Perry Holley:
My self esteem, my. And you start thinking that. Are you telling me as a leader I’m responsible for your self concept? No, everybody’s responsible for their own. But most people are dealing with some level of personal insecurity. And when you can. If I told you you could affect somebody’s self image, self esteem by how you communicate, by how you include them, by how you come alongside them, would you want to do that positively? Yeah, of course. And they’re responsible for, you know, their insecurities. But I think, I think you can.

Chris Goede:
Shape and mold it. What you’re saying, like you’re going to have that. No doubt you’re going to have that.

Perry Holley:
So I think in thinking about how I speak to people that I can help mold your self concept. So you do feel good and you do feel energized by being a part of what we’re doing here.

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Perry Holley:
Phase three, which we talked about, did you model and then did you motivate this as far as influence, but this is the the word here is mentoring and guiding others through personal and professional growth. Again we this comes back so much about motivating. Get that motivating level of influence. You’ve started to make a positive impact on a person’s life. But to make it long lasting and really move them ahead to the future is really where the mentoring comes in and like pouring your life into their life and helping do. I see your potential and I want to take you to a higher level. It’s not just personal development. It’s.

Perry Holley:
It’s more than that to me.

Chris Goede:
Yeah, I love that. And this is back to the five levels. I’m going to ask you a question just a minute. Because I love that John uses the word mentoring right here. Maybe it’s because the other ones have M’s.

Perry Holley:
Yeah.

Chris Goede:
John, former pastor right there. Three bullet points. But in just a minute, I’m going to ask you to talk a little bit about the difference between mentoring and coaching. Because as I’m a leader and I’m listening to this and I want to increase my. My influence. I want to be a person of influence with individuals and I want to increase that. Yes, I’m going to coach them, but there’s also some mentoring. So I want to talk to you about that in just a minute.

Chris Goede:
Come back to where you were leaving off about the five levels. This is a level four skill set. This is where we are reproducing ourselves. We are developing people. And. And you can only get to that level after you’ve done levels two and three really, really well. You’ve connected with them, they’ve given you permission to lead them, and you guys have won together. If you don’t do that well, you’ll never increase your level of influence as a person of influence to level four, where you have the opportunity to reproduce yourselves in them and you’re mentoring them.

Chris Goede:
There’s an underlining reason why I think John put in here where it’s reproduction. You’re reproducing because it is a mentoring thing more than a coaching thing. And that’s why we’re going to talk about that in just a little bit because what we want you to think about, you know, how do I. You can use the word protege, but how do I take what’s inside me and reproduce that into others? And how can I then make sure that through all of that I get them through the valleys and the peaks, I get them continue to focus on the future, the windshield versus the review, because they’re going to make mistakes through that level process. They continue to come back to you, you continue to mentor them. Your level 4 influence stays right there. And then how do you support them after your mentoring sessions? And you follow back up maybe where they struggled or failed or maybe where they succeeded of how do you take what they’re learning from you? Right. And applying that in the daily Activity.

Chris Goede:
Hey, back when I was doing X, here’s what that looked like. I think this is what this looks like for you and you’re you having that reproductive. So stop for just a minute because I, I think some people intermix the two. Mentoring and coaching here at level four is. We’re reproducing ourselves. We’re giving of ourselves. John’s really talking about mentoring. So the M does work.

Chris Goede:
The third word. He knows what he’s talking about obviously. Right. He’s done this a few times. But before you go to the next point, talk a little bit about that and what you see, the differences and why it’s important for our listeners to understand at this point as we want to become more of a person of influence with people.

Perry Holley:
Yeah. I had thought to you to set it. But if I said coaching is really guiding another individual through a process maybe of self discovery that they are figuring out on their own with your guidance on how to get what they need.

Chris Goede:
You’re pulling the best out of them. Right. Like you’re, you’re curious, you’re. You’re trying to get them to a point to where it’s already inside. You’re pulling it out of them through questions.

Perry Holley:
Yeah. I was just thinking when you’re talking that is that really a level three type of action? I coach you at level three to help you to draw to you for your performance. But when I get to level four, when it’s people development and go to mentoring, it. It can be more sharing of my experience. I’m more telling versus asking. Coaching is more asking. Mentoring could be more telling. But I also.

Perry Holley:
When you come to the coaching conversation with me, I’m the coach. I come prepared on how to guide you. When you come to the mentoring conversation, you the mentor, you come prepared or what you want to pull from me, that’s. And so it’s the coaching’s pulling from the coachee. The mentor is allowing it to be pulled from them. The mentee is being pulled. And then it’s okay to share your experiences. And I did this and you know, you may see that.

Perry Holley:
So you’re sharing the experiences and the background and the things you’ve done to help this other person not make the same mistakes you made to overcome that and to go further meeting their potential.

Chris Goede:
Yeah.

Perry Holley:
As I can really help you get further down the road by you leaning on me because I’ve been down that road coaching. I don’t. I coach a lot of people that I’ve never been in their, in their role shoes. I Don’t have to be in the role. I’m just. I’m talking. I’m coaching you about performance and leadership and productivity, the management, the things we talk about a lot. I have been an executive.

Perry Holley:
I have been in management. I have led big teams and small teams. But I haven’t done it in your industry. Do I need to be? No. But now you’re going to be an executive in this industry. Maybe you want to talk to me about how I, you know, this, how I pioneered this industry. Let’s go to the final one. Phase four.

Perry Holley:
The M word there is multiplying. And I love. He uses the word empowering others to become people of influence. And this is really the highest form of influence. It really helps people become these people of influence and live lives that they probably couldn’t live before. Not everyone gets to be to this level, but everyone could. But it really is the highest form. If you go through these other three, getting to this, the multiplying, where you’re taking other people and putting them out.

Chris Goede:
Into the world, this is level five for us. And another way to look at it is leaders that are developing, multiplying, and reproducing other leaders. Right? This is where we are 100% multiplying leaders. And so as we wrap up here, I think as we think about this, leaders who pass the unspoken and spoken test, because some of these people are watching, and then some of them, they’re observ. They’re. They’re with you, right? Together. So I think leaders who pass the unspoken and the spoken test earn influence. But the ones who fail that, I think, not think, I know, lose.

Chris Goede:
Really what matters most is the influence of people, even if you still have the title. So when you think about, back to this, how we started and we started talking about, are you an influencer or a person of influence? There are tests that are happening every single day about your leadership. And people are. Are looking at that and they’re watching you answer the questions and does that align? Are you just influencing or are you becoming a person of influence? If you follow this modeling, motivating, mentoring, and multiplying based off some of the conversations that we had, you will grow. Both in the unspoken and the spoken test, you will pass and grow as a person of influence versus somebody that’s just an influencer. We all can think about right now in this world of social media influencers who are not passing some of these tests that we just talked about, some people that desire to have a person, that want to become a person influence, they’re not passing them right now either but there’s a way for them to do that. And so we just want to encourage you, man. Think about each one of these ones that we just talked about and do a little bit of self assessment.

Chris Goede:
Where am I at on the unspoken and the spoken ones where I’m at modeling, motivating, mentoring and then multiplying people?

Perry Holley:
I love it. Anything about an influencer and social media just trying to gain more followers and a person of influence trying to really grow their followers. Love that.

Chris Goede:
I love that.

Perry Holley:
Great conversation Chris. Thank you. And as as always, if you’d like more information about our offerings about other podcasts in our podcast family or the learner guide for this episode, you may do all of that at MaxwellLeadership.com/Podcast. You can also leave us a comment or a question. We love hearing from you. We’re grateful you’d spend this time. That’s all today from the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast.