Are You Leading a Good Life or Just Maintaining a Good Image?

Mark Cole:
We fumbled the ball. We gave the other team, whoever the other team was, we gave them the ball. And it’s almost like I went to the fans and said, man, I am sorry. I really was not holding that ball really well. It’s almost like the fans went, oh man, you’re such a good player. That doesn’t happen in sports. Hey, welcome back to the Maxwell Leadership Podcast. If you’re a regular listener, if you check us out week in and week out, number one, thank you.

Mark Cole:
You truly make this podcast what it is and your feedback and those things that you give us, the questions. They’re a game changer, and we’re just going to continue to uplevel the ways you can interact with us. So stay tuned for that. But I wanted to tell you that if you’re a regular podcast listener, you know that we are doing a deep dive into how success creates separation for leaders rather than connectivity for leaders. That is a natural tendency. And so today, again, we’re going to talk about how to stabilize success when John jumps on here. And Chris, I got to tell you, man. I have enjoyed this podcast series as good as any we’ve done.

Chris Robinson:
Yeah, absolutely. It’s been great. And I’ve loved the vulnerability and I love what we’re going to talk about today because I’m going to get you vulnerable again.

Mark Cole:
He’s going to pull it out of me, gang.

Chris Robinson:
We’re going to get you telling on yourself.

Mark Cole:
Well, I love it. I do love it. Hey, by the way, if you would like to follow along as John and/or I teach today, or as Chris Robinson, Go to MaxwellPodcast.com/Image. Number one, you’ll get the bonus resource, but you’re going to get the link to our YouTube channel. And today’s podcast on the YouTube channel, trust me on this, you’re going to want to go because we’re going to let Chris Robinson, Mr. GQ, Mr. Good Looking, John calls him Mr. GQ.

Mark Cole:
We’re going to let you see where he came from. And that’s going to be on the YouTube channel today. So if usually you’re running and you’re working out, and so you just audibly listen to us, pause the treadmill and go on YouTube. I promise you it’ll be worth it. It’s going to be a great time. Hey, John is today going to talk about how to stabilize your image and success with authenticity. You’re going to like it. It’s going to help you.

Mark Cole:
There’s something there for all of us, and I’m very excited about that. So check us out, MaxwellPodcast.com/Image. You’ll have the bonus resource. You have other links there. We’ll put some more tools and resources to add value to you there as well. All right, here we go. Here’s what you’ve been waiting for, what I’m excited to hear with you. Here is John Maxwell.

John Maxwell:
When people are worried about their image, I mean, think of social media and all the stuff that people do today to make themselves look good. I would love for social media to take a break and everybody take their worst pictures of themselves. Wouldn’t that be fun? Wouldn’t that be fun that we, instead of, you know, instead of here I am at the Eiffel Tower in Paris, here I am taking the garbage out today. You know, ’cause this is real life.

Mark Cole:
Yeah.

John Maxwell:
So with image, I think the way to balance and stabilize if you’ve got this image issue is authenticity. I do a few roundtables, not a lot, maybe 5 a year. I don’t do a lot, but I’ll get these kids around me. I love these kids. They’re young and they’re ambitious and I love all of it and they’re wanting to do well. And so they’ll ask me about branding and I always tell them the same thing. I’ll say, look, let me tell you something more important than branding. They’re leaning in.

John Maxwell:
What could be more important than getting the right brand? And I said, get good.

Chris Robinson:
Yeah.

John Maxwell:
Just get good. Because if you’re good, any brand will work. And if you’re not good, there’s not a brand in the world that can save you. Just get good. Just get good. And so, what I do is I take them into my office. Because when I— the thing that people really like when they come to my house for a dinner is not the dinner. We have great dinners.

John Maxwell:
But what they really love is going into my I take ’em to my office and I sit with ’em for 30 to 40 minutes. It’s like a museum. And I just take ’em through all the stuff I’ve got in my office and I tell stories and they just go crazy over the office. And so what I do is I kept in my office my first 3 kits that were cassette tapes. Many of you don’t even know what that is. But my first 3 kits that were cassette tapes, they have stickers on ’em with the titles of the kit and they’re vinyl, plastic kind of vinyl, cheap vinyl, ‘Cause I didn’t have any money. And I pulled these 3 kits out and I showed them. I said, these are the first 3 kits that I produced as a communicator, as a speaker.

John Maxwell:
And the first thing you look at them and say, that’s god-awful. That’s just, dear Lord, help that boy. I mean, they’re awful. And I love that. Because when I’m done, I said, and by the way, those 3 kits sold 100,000. Kits. The labeling is bad, the branding is terrible. The product is wonderful.

John Maxwell:
If you’re good, they’ll figure it out. And if you’re not good, branding won’t help. Are you with me? I think it’s very important for you to just, you know, stay real. I teach sometimes what Gandhi taught. about false position. Gandhi said, I’m gonna read something that he said ’cause it was just brilliant. He said, constant development, in other words growth, is the law of life. And a man who always tries to maintain his dogmas in order to appear consistent drives himself into a false position.

John Maxwell:
So I define false position after studying Gandhi in this for a while. Here’s how I Here’s how I define false position. A place where I try to cling to my old views in order to appear consistent while I realize within myself I’ve outgrown them and they no longer represent who I am.

Mark Cole:
That’s powerful.

John Maxwell:
And if you’re a growing person, people that haven’t seen you for a period of time, you grow out of— I mean, when I started off, As a young leader, I had hundreds of certainties. I was the most certain person. I was full of confidence and certainties. I was amazing. If you could’ve known me at 25, I had an answer for anything you asked. I was so good. Hundreds of answers and certainties. Now, here’s the one thing that’s good.

John Maxwell:
You know, maybe the half a dozen certainties I have today, I’m more certain than I ever have been before.

Chris Robinson:
Amen.

John Maxwell:
So they’re real solid. But you see, when we are growing, there’s a tendency for us to meet people’s expectations by what they knew us as. And we’re different. See, you lose your authenticity when you try to hold on to things that you no longer believe or that you no longer accept or think.

Chris Robinson:
Amen.

John Maxwell:
And so I just think that it’s just a great balance for a person to, you know, my goal is not to maintain a good image. My goal is to lead a good life and, you know, be your friend, John. That’s all. It’s not complicated.

Mark Cole:
We had— I hope you enjoyed that with John. I know Chris and I did. And we just had some great conversation about that whole lesson. But we have a podcast. In fact, Jake, I would love to put Marcus Buckingham’s link into our show notes. Marcus Buckingham’s been a guest of this podcast, brilliant thinker, a good friend of John and I’s. He has a quote about today’s lesson that’s really good. He says, authenticity is your most precious commodity as a leader.

Mark Cole:
And I think Marcus is right. And I think what John just taught us today is really a key attribute of keeping your success stabilized by having a focus on your image and balancing that image with authenticity. And so it’s going to be good talking about that today.

Chris Robinson:
Yeah. Well, I mean, I want to start off, I mean, because John talked about social media out the gate. Now, if you see social media, you’ll see I really love nice suits. I love nice clothes.

Mark Cole:
You do look good today, by the way. YouTube family, comment. He always looks this good. Always.

Chris Robinson:
I love looking good. But John says it’s the highlights. He says that I wish people would just show themselves going out to the garbage can. And I wish you— so, what I did was, I want you all to see a photo today. I want you to see a photo. And, you know, one of the things that I’m known for is this million-dollar smile.

Mark Cole:
It’s a million-dollar smile.

Chris Robinson:
Now, the reason it’s a million-dollar smile is not because of millions of dollars, it’s because it cost a million dollars to get them fixed. And so, I wanna share with you an image, a picture of a 5th grade boy whose teeth didn’t look like this.

John Maxwell:
And so—

Chris Robinson:
Chris just showed me this picture in the studio.

Mark Cole:
that you guys are all looking at right now on YouTube. He showed me this picture and he said, this is my million-dollar smile. And I went, brother, you got a lot going on in that mouth. There is a lot going on in that mouth that you’re looking at right now. Your parents, they get credit right here.

Chris Robinson:
That’s correct. That’s correct. They get it. They spent a million dollars getting this smile right here. But I want to go first. I want to go first. And hey, if you’re bold out there, You know, post in the comments a picture of you as a child. Yeah, yeah.

Mark Cole:
One of my worst pictures— this is so funny. This is memory lane, and I didn’t think of this a while ago when you gave that to me. But boy, I go back to my senior pic— ah, it wasn’t my senior. It was like 15 or 16. So, it was a high school picture. And brother, the Oxy-10, do you remember what that is? Oxy-10 was medicine for your acne. And the Oxy-10 was not working that day. The Sea Breeze that I put on my face was not working that day.

Mark Cole:
It was a rough, rough day. It was a rough day. My hair was in the middle of turning curly and turning red. And I remember that picture and going, man, I hope I can figure out how to destroy this picture. And so far it hasn’t posted on social media and it’s not being shown today in case anybody’s wondering.

Chris Robinson:
We’ll find it.

Mark Cole:
We’ll find it.

Chris Robinson:
Man, let’s talk about, this one was heavy on image, on image. And I think about this. So he says to stabilize that, we have to go with authenticity. And so recently there was a situation that we had communication-wise inside the organization where we missed Yeah. From a communication standpoint. And what I loved about it was that your response to it was authenticity. We didn’t get it right. We missed the timing, but immediately we jumped in to do what we could and we hosted a team-wide call where we addressed the issue that was missed at that time.

Chris Robinson:
But you did that with authenticity and that really gave us that balance or that change back in the pocket. From the change that was lost, from the trust that was lost, from how we miscommunicated. So talk to me about addressing things with authenticity and how this really helps you lead well.

Mark Cole:
Well, it’s so interesting because I’m going back to that example and other examples to where you really miss it and you know you miss it. And so you acknowledge it and you get more credit than you deserve. I mean, we fumbled the ball. Like we gave the other team, whoever the other team was, we gave them the ball. And it’s almost like I went to the fans and says, man, I am sorry. I really was not holding that ball really well. It’s almost like the fans went, oh man, you’re such a good player. That doesn’t happen in sports.

Mark Cole:
But in leadership, often when you fumble the ball and you own that you fumbled the ball, I’ve watched the return on leadership authenticity surprise me more times than I can tell you. And I’m going, I really shouldn’t get credit for that. That’s just what leaders do. But I’ll tell you this, Chris, it’s not what many leaders do.

Chris Robinson:
Right.

Mark Cole:
Now, I hope all of our listeners and viewers of Maxwell Podcast, I hope that you’re good at it. People want to hear leaders say, I was wrong. They want to hear it. And we so oftentimes in public leadership, do not hear those words because there’s too much at stake. It’s called image. And in this particular case that you’re talking about, Chris, we went very hard. You and I both, we went very hard at falling on a sword. It really wasn’t hard to fall on because we had created it.

Chris Robinson:
Right.

Mark Cole:
But the mileage that we got out of authenticity is the highlight here for this moment. Because leaders that want to spend more time focused on their image rather than their vulnerability and their connectivity, they may have a slight rise in their leadership in the interim because they have faked people out, but it’ll come back around.

Chris Robinson:
Yeah.

Mark Cole:
It will absolutely come back around. And the very thing you tried to protect will be the very thing that gets you in the end because you cannot sustain an image that is fake. For the sake of fakeness, you can only, and for effectiveness, you can sustain authenticity.

Chris Robinson:
Yeah. You know, when I think about this one right here, so you said that authenticity can help us and it helped us in that specific situation, but talk to me about a time where authenticity hurt you or cost you an opportunity.

Mark Cole:
Yeah, so for me, I spent the first 10 years of my leadership opportunity. So I had this brilliant opportunity to lead. This was before Maxwell Leadership. And I squandered that opportunity by trying to keep an image that was not even sustainable. It was not me. But to work in that environment, I felt like that I had to have this image of everyone else. But I cannot tell you the thousands of times, Chris, that I got concerned that I was going to be found out, that I got concerned. And you run with this head over your shoulder look and you end up running into a brick wall because you’re looking too far over your back to make sure that nobody’s catching up with this image that you couldn’t sustain at the very beginning.

Mark Cole:
And I spent over 10 years establishing an image that wasn’t true. And what’s so interesting is when that image is found false, you lose everything anyway. And at the beginning you go, well, I don’t want anybody to know because I won’t be able to build from here. And you don’t have anything to lose.

John Maxwell:
Right.

Mark Cole:
It’s like John’s saying, man, make a risk on the front end because there’s nothing to lose. Try to be yourself on the front end because if you are creating a fake image or a fake pseudo-you, it will crumble. And when it crumbles, you’re going to have a lot more to lose because of what you’ve built from a fake image or from a fake sense of authenticity.

Chris Robinson:
Yeah, I know. And the phrase that I just hate is fake it until you make it. Now, there is times when we think about image or first impressions that can cost you. When I think about an opportunity that I lost one time when I was being authentic was very early in my speaking and coaching career as a business coach. I got a call from the former mayor of a city that I lived in, and he says, hey, I need you to go to this financial firm. He was like, they want to talk to you about executive coaching, and the only window he has got this afternoon. I said, well, hey, I’m just coming from the golf course and I don’t have any clothes on. This is a financial firm, so I need to be, you know, full suit, everything.

Mark Cole:
And so— Now, just to correct you, you didn’t have any clothes on or you didn’t have the right clothes on? I didn’t have the right clothes on. I just want to make sure how we’re walking into this business meeting Yeah, Jake, put up another picture. No, no pictures.

Chris Robinson:
So here I am and I’m wanting to be authentic. And so I said, that’s fine. I’m going to show up there. And I’ve got mud on my pants from the golf course that day. It was raining. I’ve got on a polo and I kind of show up with my little baggy head and all these guys are in suits. Needless to say, they weren’t impressed by my authenticity.

John Maxwell:
Now I missed that opportunity now.

Chris Robinson:
And again, was that for me or not? I don’t know. But I think that there’s a time where you have to have an image in your authenticity, but also knowing the difference when is it causing you to be somebody else?

John Maxwell:
Yeah.

Chris Robinson:
You know, I’m okay with missing that opportunity because I wasn’t trying to be somebody else just with the suit on.

Mark Cole:
Yeah.

Chris Robinson:
Right? And so I missed that one. But authenticity and image is a big, big thing.

Mark Cole:
Well, and let me say this because I have, I have worked alongside of one of the most recognized leadership voices in the world. We know it. Our podcast is named after him, Maxwell Leadership. John Maxwell is one of the most authentic people I know.

Chris Robinson:
Mm-hmm.

Mark Cole:
He’s one of the most least image conscious as it relates to what most people consider image. But I think it’s a very important distinction right here that John is very passionate about his image of connectivity. of his image of approachability. He says, hi, my name is John Maxwell and I’m your—

John Maxwell:
Friend.

Mark Cole:
I’m your friend. That is an image statement of John Maxwell. His image that he wants people to know is friend. The problem I have with image as it’s used most of the time is we want people to think we’re dressed up and looked up and set up and fixed up in a way that is not sustainable. So I do believe in image, But I believe we need to get really clear on what image we’re trying to portray or project so that we can deliver to people for the rest of our life the image that we fight for at the beginning of life. And so, John absolutely works hard on his image, but his image is not the cars he drives, the way he dresses, the way people think of him in a success standpoint. It’s how people access him from an approachability standpoint.

John Maxwell:
Yeah.

Chris Robinson:
Yeah. No, I know, again, I talked about it a couple weeks ago about dealing with different personalities in our world. And some have this success gap where they have an image on stage and one off stage. And we do all types of stuff with all different types of personalities. How do you lead those type of personalities where their image is more important than the actual connection or the actual Anything. It comes to the forefront.

Mark Cole:
I love this question because I think it’s the root of what John’s trying to talk about here, that the way to balance your success image is authenticity. So John talks to network marketers a lot of time, the network marketing industry, and he says, if you would spend as much time talking about your failures or your disappointments as you do your successes and your incredible things that you have acquired, he said, you will take more people on the journey with you. But because you’re constantly talking about your image and your successes and your possessions, then you’re creating this gap. And people finally, over a little bit of time, just says, I’ll never measure up to that. It’s not me. Back to your question about working alongside people that are very image conscious, very concerned what other people see or think about them. I’ve worked with a lot of people. You and I are in the talent acquisition business.

Mark Cole:
We acquire speaking talent, and I’ve watched every one of them want the hue on the projection screen in the auditorium to have this certain blue or this certain thing. And John goes in and says, I don’t care what I look like on screen. Can you cut the lights up so people can take notes? Can you just— In other words, John’s image is about connecting with people, not separating themselves from people. Most of the time when I’ve watched image-conscious people become problematic and lose influence, it’s because of what they want people to perceive about themselves rather than the leader being interested in what’s perceived about the person they’re trying to impact.

John Maxwell:
Right.

Mark Cole:
And that distinction is a really important one in talking about this image. Are you trying to protect your image? Are you trying to protect the image of the people you’re trying to influence? Are you trying to edify them or are you trying to edify yourself? I’ve watched leaders come and go, and the leaders that don’t have a shelf life is the ones that come in and says, well, what are people going to think about me? Rather than how can I improve what people think about themselves?

John Maxwell:
Right.

Mark Cole:
And leaders that don’t use their image to actually lift the people around them. And by lift, I don’t mean trying to make them as successful as you. I’m talking about making them more successful than you. I’ve watched John, to your point of your thing that you missed, your opportunity that you missed, I’ve watched John get more excited about coming off of a golf course and your thing. I remember an example right now to where we had this opportunity to meet somebody we really wanted to meet and they were going to be dressed to the nines and we were just coming off again a golf course. And John said, let’s go meet them now. I said, John, you want to clean up a little bit? You got a little bit. No, I want to show them that they were so important that I would never miss this opportunity.

Mark Cole:
I didn’t know I was going to have the opportunity or I might not have played golf. You’re that important to me. I would’ve wore a suit, but the fact that you would give me an image now, let me tell you how important you are to me because your success is more important than mine.

John Maxwell:
Right.

Mark Cole:
Now that’s framing it. You probably framed it the same way, however you did it. But I’ve watched John teach me more about using image consciousness for the sake of others than most leaders that you and I are referencing, that they use image consciousness for the sake of themselves. And I think that’s where the flaw is.

Chris Robinson:
Right. John talks about get good before you get known. So talk to me about this in your life of getting good or working on getting good. As I was kind of front row witness to you developing as a communicator.

John Maxwell:
Yeah, you were.

Mark Cole:
You were. And by the way, the fact that you were not front row, then went to the last row and then went out the room speaks to your resilience.

John Maxwell:
Okay.

Chris Robinson:
I was on the same path.

Mark Cole:
I was on the same path. Yeah. So I had an interesting path to public communication. I’ve spoke a lot in previous times, but it was different environment. It definitely wasn’t on a stage like John Maxwell’s. And everything that I learned there was not very effective in what I was learning in the business community, speaking on John’s stages. And so I can remember being thrust into the limelight as an already successful business leader. I had a good image of leadership influence, of impact.

Mark Cole:
It was a good one. I led a lot of success. And because part of John’s big success is speaking and content, and because we have the largest coaching, speaking, and training coaching company in the world, and now John feels like I need to speak on that stage. And he decides that I need to use that stage to get good in front of literally 2 to 3 times a year in front of 3,000 to 4,000 people. That was my beta testing of getting good in speaking.

Chris Robinson:
It was terrible.

Mark Cole:
It was terrible. And I can remember many times people coming up to me and saying, man, I’m sorry. I’m sorry John’s getting you to do that. And what they were really concerned with was my image. I was not at all. I can promise you this, Chris. I was not at all worried about my image. I wasn’t trying to be the next John Maxwell as a speaker.

Mark Cole:
I was worried about the people that were going to go, this is terrible. I can’t get anything out of this. What I found was a bunch of wonderful people like Chris that says, we’re going to bear through this to see if this will work. This is like a test project right here. And are we going to see it crash and burn or is this thing going to work? And now because of time and coaching and our product works, I can go command several, several thousand dollars for a keynote and speak okay. But I still go back to those times and just go, man, I’m so glad that I did not let my image affect my wanting them to have an image of me being a great communicator or even a great leader. I never let that get in the way of the process of what I knew John was trying to do.

Chris Robinson:
Right. Well, I think that’s where a lot of people miss it is that they want that perception so early as well too. So like what John tells us all the time, you’re never good the first time. And quite frankly, you’re never good the first 100 times, especially as a communicator. And I can think about even in my path where I had a gentleman years later reach out to me for coaching and he says, but hey, Chris, I want to tell you something before we get started because I want to talk to you about coaching me. He goes, I have to tell you, I was at your very first speaking event. He goes, and I got to tell you, I said, there’s no way this guy’s going to make it.

John Maxwell:
I relate.

Chris Robinson:
Now, I laughed and I thought that was great. We had a great time on the golf course that day and it was awesome. But when it comes to image, especially in the beginning, you can’t let the thought of what other people think prevent you from moving forward and developing that skill. We all have to develop, we all have to grow, and you got to let go and detach from that image, especially in the very beginning.

Mark Cole:
Yeah, I do agree with that. I love that. Chris, today I just spoke 2 times a few weeks ago at James Madison University. One of our coaches had me up there, second year in a row. And what I did there that I always do every time now, which is something John did, but it didn’t make sense to me until just a few years ago. Many, many speeches done to where I would go, is my stuff going to make sense? Am I going to impact? Is people going to think I delivered a good thing? I mean, it was all about me and my performance and my effectiveness, even masking the fact of, man, I sure hope I help people today. No, I was hoping I wouldn’t screw up. And now I sit and I go, what about what I’m getting ready to say today do I want to impact people the most? And I quit trying to form it in when I put this illustration or when I want to say this.

Mark Cole:
And I go, what’s going to be the moment? of the greatest amount of impact for the people that are paying good money to come and hear us speak today? And that little switch really made it all about the image of the people and not the image of the presenter. And that became more about the effectiveness, the image of the content’s effectiveness, not the image of the content’s presentation.

John Maxwell:
Got it.

Mark Cole:
And it’s just been a game changer for me when the image transfers from me to the people I’m trying to impact.

Chris Robinson:
That’s incredible. So the question is, are you maintaining a good image or are you leading a good life? Man, love doing these with you.

John Maxwell:
Yeah.

Mark Cole:
Looking forward to the next one. You know, I really would ask you, our podcast family, as Chris and I kind of wrap up this concept of balancing or stabilizing your success and specifically this area of image, As it relates to authenticity. And I really want to ask you, what areas of your leadership are you allowing other people’s expectations to hold you back from growing and moving forward? What is it? Can you list something? Is there something there? And then where in your leadership are you most tempted to be somebody that you’re not?

John Maxwell:
Where is that? Yeah.

Mark Cole:
And I just think those 2 questions are questions that’ll really help you as you just kind of apply the content from this podcast this month, or this week rather. I hope that that will impact you. I love, we have one of our listeners, a podcast family whose name is Jordan. And I love this, Chris. In fact, this question’s going to come to you, and I’m going to go ahead and tell you before I give you the question why it’s going to come to you. Those of you that do not know, Not only does Chris truly have a million-dollar smile that I now know today, he had a lot going on in that mouth of his as a 5th grader. I also want to tell you that he’s also made 6 other humans. He and Janae, his wife, have made 6 other humans that have brilliant smiles and brilliant attitudes.

Mark Cole:
And he’s an incredible— he’s an even better family guy and a dad than he is a leader. And I respect him so much. So you get this question.

Chris Robinson:
Okay, good.

Mark Cole:
Okay, you ready? So Jordan asked this, not only am I striving to become a better leader in my workplace, but I’m striving to become a better leader for my wife and kids at home. Do you have any advice for me when trying to lead my family well?

Chris Robinson:
Yeah, that’s a great question. Hey, this is one of those things where you’re tested on what you teach about. And so I don’t want to get tested here, but to do this, I believe that, you know, John teaches a principle called the law of the picture, which is people do what people see.

John Maxwell:
Yeah.

Chris Robinson:
So, when it comes to the kids, what I have to keep in mind is that they’re gonna do what they see. So, how are they going to treat your wife? The way that you treat your wife. How are they going to work? The way that you work. How are they going to serve one another? The way that you serve them. And so, I would say, Jordan, first of all, lead by example. Keep it simple and understand that those kids are watching everything you do. And what you do to the minimum, they do to the maximum. What you do to the minimum, they do to the maximum.

Chris Robinson:
And so know that they’re watching. And then, if you’re also just trying to lead well, continue to focus on growing yourself. One of the best things that you can possibly do is continue to grow yourself as a leader, as an individual, whether that be through books, audios, videos, courses, curriculums, Whatever the case may be, keep growing yourself, ’cause again, that’s an example and a model of how you can lead well.

Mark Cole:
Very, very good. And by the way, that’s just how we’re gonna finish it, because everyone, including your family, deserve to be led well.